This thread was not started to say right to carry is right or wrong, but rather to demonstrate a few principles and issues americans face and why many passionately support right to carry laws.

My uncle is an avid sportsman (hunting and fishing) and gun collector. To my knowledge he is a responcibile individual and has always expressed rules of proper gun ownership when showing me his weapons. This is something he has also taught his son.

This weekend he is taking an 12 hour two day class and test to earn a concealed weapon permit. I know many of you who aren't american or possibly european do not understand the need or desire for such a thing because statistics obviously point out that higher gun ownership slighty increases violent crime. My uncles reasoning was this: "I need to carry a gun, escpecially when im hunting of fishing alone because of 'how its getting out there'".

How many people understand "how its getting out there"? Some will understand, some will be puzzled, others will completely scoff. So let me explain: At the fundamental core of my uncles statement is the desire to feel safe against crime, which is everyones right. But the difference between "here and there" US EU, is the crime itself. To my understanding, in many places in europe if you are the victim of a mugging, home robbery, car jacking etc, you most likely wont be harmed or killed. I understand from Michael Moore's Bownling For Columbine movie that many Canadians leave their doors unlocked. This isn't something i'd ever dream of. In america, i find that there is a very high chance of being physicaly harmed or murdered in an episode of violent crime. If I am mugged, not only would they take my wallet, but there is a higher chance they will take my life as well.

Do I feel safer living in an armed home? Yes. Do i feel better with my uncle carrying a pistol? yes. Do I want to NEED either of these things? No. The reality is, there is a fundamental difference in culture which creates such a difference in crime. What the difference is I might never know.

The last reason might have something to do with the right to bear arms in an effort to always protect the population against government. If you arent an american citizen and had to start a new life in america, knowning our government, would you trust them that much to not bear arms?

well, i always thought that the right to bear arms was better than the right to arm bears, but, joking aside (i had to get that one out ), you are right. From what ive heard is that common crimes (muggings, robbery) often do end up in a loss of life in America. Why? I can't say for sure, but i have a few guesses:
1. Many americans are more protective and therefore are willing to use self defense to fight off an attacker. When an attacker is confronted, he/she is left in a position to do something quickly with little thought. This normally means that he/she will use a more violent attack to prevent being caught.
2. On that same note, many attackers see this in advance and immediately go for the more violent attack approach as it will result in a shorter time in which he/she can be seen.
3. Americans, by nature i suppose, are just more agressive. Why would an american criminal not fall within these bounds?

As for the concealed weapon, i have no doubt that your uncle is safe with firearms, but is he doing this just to add another item onto his firearm scoreboard? (so to speak) or is he truly concerned about being attacked while hunting in the forest?

Edit: Also, what ive heard, is that if a person does have a self-defense weapon, he or she is more likely to use it before logically thinking if the situation demands its use. Again, im not saying your uncle would do this, but as it's a discussion, i figured i'd throw it out here.

i will get one some day.....again for the saftey.....and i think its great your uncle is doing that, rather than illegally carrying a gun around w/o a permit....it shows he is being totally responsible..

AdamJ this is a sad state for us to be in in order to "feel safer" with a sidearm. I do believe that it is the case with violent crimes here, everyday I see about 5 violent crimes on the 6PM news here and for a populational area such as this it is extremely high:

Homicides ONLY 2003/2004 (Total Pop. 1,533,192)
Norfolk - 43/35 (No crime stats?)
Virginia Beach - 32/18 (All crimes)
Portsmouth - 17/NA (More info from 2003)
Newport News - 29/18 (All info from 97-04)
Hampton - 11/10 (See here for a good breakdown)
Chesapeake - 4/12 (All crime)
Suffolk - 2/4
Williamsburg - 1/(n/a) (More here)

Now I know you are thinking well that is fairly low for 1.5 Million but that is ONLY homocides. Take a look at the links to see all the tier/level 1 crimes, it is scary.

I have a feeling if more people here carried weapons it would be lower, now don't jump all over this but listen. Here is the deal this area is jammed full of Military installations( I can name 9 off hand), and one of the major rules at any installation is NO personal firearms. So with a majority of people here military or civilian who work on the bases the number of people who would/can be able to carry a weapon is extremely low.

Now a generalization in military bases is they go to lowest bidder, ie cheapest land plot in this case. Usually these plots are in low income areas, thus more people more targets. Sad but true everywhere state side I have been. Have alook at those links and think back that a few years ago a major magazine voted the city of Virginia Beach one of the best cities in the US to raise a family.

EDIT - Sorry for the spelling, it's late.

I think it might be the culmination of different cultural ideologys (take your pick but im zeroing on rabid individualism) exercising themselves to the large population of disenfranchized people. Our government has never ever been too kind to its people, and I honestly believe this govt has alot to do with it.

I know what you mean man, here in cincy i hear every night about some one being killed, or mugged, or raped. Well, not just someone, but several people. People die here all the time for being in the wrong area.

If you look back in politics, there was a very long and heated and info filled thread about gun carry vs, violent crime. We uncovered interesting things: Some charts will show that an increase in private gun carry is directly relational to the drop in crime trend. But we noticed this was incorrect because there was a sudden and abnormal spike in crime from the 80's. Im sure we all remember mega gang issues then. What we also uncovered is that during the time of the crime fall, many programs for children and the rest of society to educate and stop crime were also in effect along with right to carry laws. So in reality we had to say, well, was it the guns or the programs which were making a dent. We uncovered that the truth of the matter is that when more citizens carry guns, violent crime increases just slightly. This is coming as unbiased as i can present it, but dig up the thread man and read all of the materials, you'll be amazed. But if the rate of increase of violent crime compared to gun carry were any lower, statisticaly it would be categorized as no change. But if we removed the abnormal spike in the 80's, it shows a trend of steady violent crime increase!

To me the answer to this problem is not more guns, but more education, improvement of slums and inner city with education and just tons of funding, better social programs etc. This all means high taxes, but it has to be done.

When reading your posts a question came into mind: do you guys have statistics over homicides per region? Are gun related issues in the rural areas so different from Europe?

Because if you ask me what the difference is between the US and Europe it's not only the number of guns, but the fact that guns seem to be part of life in the big cities. Things like gangs, people getting into crossfire, drive-by shootings... All those things sound totally unbelievable to me...

To my knowledge in the last 5 years Belgium had no deaths resulting from street violence (being mugged, harrassed, whatever). A year or 7/8 ago it happened once and it was frontpage news for 2 weeks.

And before you say, ugh, Belgium... Brussels has population over a million, Antwerp has over 600.000. That is not what you can call rural, is it.

Besides, feeling unsecure has absolutely nothing to do with it, because it's a sentimental thing. I guess there are older people in Iceland who are afraid to come out at night, simply because they have a subjective feeling of insecurity.

K2- you can try here http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/ucr.htm

adamj, thank you for that insight, but I still don't see why your Uncle needs to carry a gun around with him. But as I don't live in the US I can't fully understand and evaulate the problem of crime in the US. But what I do know is cities like Birmingham and London are just a violent (at night) like you are describing. But do people who live there feel a need to carry guns? No.

Also if your Uncle was attacked would he actually shoot someone (possible kill). When being attacked, you are often caught by suprise and are dumb struck. So I can't really see why a gun would be useful at all.

If anything it would increase the danger of the situation. Let's say your uncle does draw his gun out in time, but then the attacker will feel threated when he's suposed to be in control, chances are that he will be more violent and agrressive towards your uncle.

I too am an American, have been my whole life, but have a completely different perspective than the one presented here.

With all due respect to the author, I have spent a great deal of time living and working in other countries. My perspectives prior to travelling were very different from what they are now, and I believe therein lies the problem with what has been presented in the post.

Let's start with the American tendency to exaggerate and make claims they suspect but have no evidence or proof to back up. For example:

From the author above ... "In america, i find that there is a very high chance of being physicaly harmed or murdered in an episode of violent crime. If I am mugged, not only would they take my wallet, but there is a higher chance they will take my life as well."

Do you know the incidence of violent crime in America? In your state, region or city? Did you know that if you are a victim of crime, that the reality and incidence of violence is actually low, with the exception of several areas of some of the larger cities (like LA, etc.). Your perspective and saying that you find the chance of being harmed or murdered is very high is not doing your argument, nor this country any favors, and is a gross exaggeration.

I find it very frustrating when Americans start talking and making claims without any true basis in fact, or without any statistics or demonstrations to back them up. I never noticed it before I lived abroad, now I see it every day.

Want to make comparisons to Europe? former Soviet Union? Asia? Then make them from personal knowledge or studies. (Also, by the way, Europe is not Paris, or Munich or London...I believe the real Europe can be found in small cities in central and eastern europe, just my own personal opinion though). Want to know how much Americans know about the rest of the world? Ask them to point out Iraq on a globe. It will become clear real fast.

I always wanted to think of my country as the greatest country in the world, but more like the intelligent, benevolent, kind big guy on the block. Instead what I am starting to feel like is that I am seeing opinionated gun toting under-educated people that feel they need to justify their right to carry a concealed weapon with baseless unsubstantiated arguments that force the rest of the world to scratch their heads and wonder whats up (or be afraid).

As the "global society" progresses, the winners will be countries that can adapt and easily understand others, speak their languages, and be cognizant and respectful of other cultures. I am finding less and less of this in my country. Those were things that were supposed to make America great, now they tear her apart.

The old adage about walking a mile in another's shoes would apply here. More Americans need to travel, and not just visit the Louvre or London Bridge. They need to talk and learn and understand what the rest of the world is about, and not talk as if they already know.

This is not an exaggeration. I can see that you are new, so I invite you to explore this SAME topic in threads past in 'Politics'. Every peice of statistic you can dream of has been brought up and referenced, most here know this. You dont so allow me to be the first to correct you. If you simply MUST have statistics (It's ok, you're new and havent read the other posts,) go here http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/
There are lots and lots of lovely numbers easily accessible via google.

I simply do not appreciate a "newbie" just decididing to making his grand entrance into the politics forum by demanding statistics. How dare you! Please, read elsewhere and look for threads on gun control, you might learn something.


Let me make the claim that your first post has indeed been a horrible one.



Let me again be the first to tell you that you aren't mentioning anything new. I believe you will find us quite capable here at iex. Americans being retarded in general has been a topic discussed long before you.

Pretty much everything else you've stated has been said many many times. Please do some homework before you post again.

adam, again, great posts. Here at Egypt, it is very rare when you see a normal citizen carrying a gun. Usually when someone owns a gun, and is walking down a street with the gun showing, people will actually move away and begin to feel VERY scared. How do people get mugged here? Unlike USA, you don't need a gun. Some guy walks up to you and "accidently" spills some juice on you. Naturally, he would apologize and start cleaning his mess, at that time, he would of ripped you off. . When I was at NYC, some guy in his twenties atually pointed a gun at me and asked for my wallet. I personally think guns everywhere should be banned. Shut down ammunition companies, gun companies etc... From what I have been reading here on this board and at other boards, teens at USA want guns for the fun of it

hey adam, don't be so harsh on this new guy. I understand your frustration, if not anger, reading his post, but as far as I'm concerned, I enjoyed it, at least the last part. Know why? Because I have the exact same feeling as clogan98 when I read or hear people criticizing the US, but who have never, ever been there (by being there, I mean living there).

It takes time, will and complete immersion into a country and its culture to be able to understand it. Not just reading news out of Internet sources...

so welcome clogan98, just make sure to not step on too many toes with unfounded claims

Indeed Kouby, my appologies to everyone from sounding so harsh

Not true; I live in Victoria B.C. My house has been B&E'd once, A few of my neibours as well, we now leave our lights on 24/7 and I now have an alarm system with video monitoring with motion detect. I have no disire to have a gun yet! Leaving your door unlocked is an invitation to be robbed.

My thread only made the observation that you were ignoring statistics, I did not request any statistics myself, not my interest. I simply prefer when speaking to know what I am talking about and have evidence to back it. Anyhow, aside from the fact that your link to disastercenter.com I would question (whois points to an adverstising company in Alaska, not exacly a bastion of factual information I would trust), but using the numbers there, Violent crime victims in America account for a small fraction of the total population.

I would never purport to say crime in America is not high, it is far too high. Again, I do not think though that it does anyone any favor (certainly not the US) to exaggerate to make a point.

The reason I wrote what I wrote is precisely because I read through the postings on the site saw some relevance to my own political ramblings and responded accordingly.

By the way, your ranting about my being a newbie seems to be a diversion, as you really did not respond to the meaning of what was written.

As far as stepping on toes, well I will take that criticism, and only justify by saying that it certainly makes for interesting reading doesn't it?

Certainly. As long as it's done in a respectful manner to initiate a debate. I'm sure you have no other intention

Yeah, but that's all the houligans from down here in Washington doing the crime and taking the Blackball home, right? I didn't know you were "in the neighborhood", VR

I do appologize for getting off on the wrong foot with you. I want to welcome you to our forum here and I think you will find quality and sometimes heated debate where we all learn something. We have a great mix of people here from all over the world (Middle East, North America, South America, Northern Pacitic Islanders, Europeans etc)

Firstly, Statistics which you we not previewed to were at the fundamental core of my thread posting.

Secondly, I felt there was no 'substance' to respond to besides a few fleeting opinions which realy do not hold any relevance to the topic.Most everyone who is active in politics has seen the VERY long and tedious thread in which this topic was discussed for weeks on end and a practical library was dredged up from the net to which most of us are familiar... to put it another way, most us have the 'stats' and therefore have a frame of reference to understand my post.. Collectivly we have agreed on an assumption of accurate information which this thread is based on. I appologize this thread was not structured for a new visitor. It wasnt even nesssecarily geared toward americans as you can tell.

It's primary goal is one step in the process of our collective desire to learn specificcally what the differences between cultures are that cause the striking differences between nations and why some nations face the problems they do. We believe that if we can fully understand a problem and see through it, we can defeat it, thus is the nature of proper debate with good intensions. Unfortunately, I dont speak for everyone on this matter, but for most of us i do.

Edit: It is simply too tiring for any of us to regurgitate any statistics that have been violently debated in the past and it was not my intention to re-enact that war.

---

Back on topic now, I think we have established that crime in america on the average is more violent than in some european nations for example. I obvserve that carrying a weapon legaly is by nature reactive to the violent crime threat which creates a cyclical problem as our previous statistics have shown. (trust me when I stated our previosu findings are as accurate as it'll get). We have also found that the drop of violent crime, using the 80's as a reference, was only natural to the programs enacted to curb the increase. So what we are left with is a steady lowgrade violent crime increase. (with bush taking cops off the street sorry had to say it). So any previous arguments are in essence negated because we are now forced to find the true cause of vioent crime which could possibly be cultural, responce to an aloof government, the societal reconstructring which happened during the cold wars, or extreme individualism. Take your pick really, but at least we know the problem isnt really related to private gun ownership (the legal type).

I find one social norm which is popular in the states is anger combined with self-centered thought, i think it would be too broad of a discussion to focus on the cause of anger on american society, but i think the amazingly bad influx of consumerism over the past 50 years has something to do with it. People will commonly think "what can I get, what can I do" and are always in competition to succeed over others. This competitive nature combined with this mysterious cultural hardening might be a part of the problem. The only way to solve it is better social programs which can teach many disenfranchized citizens that the govt DOES care about its people and society. Followed up with proper education (which is NOT received in america - refer to previous threads on education).

I think i've hit a nail here, many times the govt' is a direct reflection of society. The way the US govt treats other nations is pretty poor considering the past 200 years of international relations (other threads being refered to here, south american contras, empirism, iran iraq war, iraq, iran, korea etc). If our govt' treats others like shit, you can bet we do it to ourselves.

I was reviewing this topic and wanted to respond to a few things.
I want you to paint me a better picture of crime in london and birmingham. In the US, some one being killed in a populated area in broad daylight because some one simply wanted to murder him is almost comon. Just the other day i heard on the evening local news of a man who was taking a walk to his local pizza place for dinner. Some random person ran up to him and stabbed him in the abdoman. He would have died if a bus driver hadnt found him slouched over in some bushes. In america, if you are mugged at a cash machine, you're lucky if you arent killed in the process, you'll easily come away with injury though. Im not saying this happens ALL the time, but its far too common. If your house is broken into here, chances are the robber himself has a weapon which means by default,he'd use it. Most of the time, they're hopped up on drugs and looking for shit to sell to support their drug habbit anyway, so they wouldnt be in their right mind. America is the place that when a robber falls off some ones roof and breaks his leg, He'll sue the home owners AND WIN!

But my uncle, he was impacted by the latest story about a man who was hunting and came across a family hunting and he had a high powered paramillitary rifle and he killed over 5 people (i may have a few facts wrong here) but the idea still remains, this man killed several others and no one really has said why.

My question to you is, do these things sound anything like london or birmingham?

Also, your general logic of the entire thing is very correct, it makes everything more dangerous etc. But the fact remains, in america the likelyhood of the other person involved in some type of conflict or crime, to have a gun is higher than most of the world.

So the only thing we have is a responce to fear. There have been moments in my life that i've been almost scared into wanting to carry a weapon and i still consider it often. You can be damn sure i carry around a nice sized pocket knife at least.

I will do my best to paint a better picture of London and Birmingham for you. I was just watching the ITV news at 12.00 and they reported a story of a man who was walking home at night, and was mugged but not only was he robbed of his money he was severely stabbed for no reason at all – later on he died because of his injuries – this took place not far from Birmingham. In my opinion this is happening far too often and you can better if you get mugged there is a highly likely chance that you will be physical injured. These muggings are often due to druggies who are unable to support their habits. Just as you describe “they're hopped up on drugs and looking for shit to sell to support their drug habit anyway” this is the same case in towns like London and Birmingham.

Now onto the issues of guns, in Birmingham gun crimes have been going up dramatically – it as been proven by a number of studies. Now if you introduce a law where everybody was allowed to carry guns, then gun crime, or almost certainly gun killings would increase so rapidly that cities like Birmingham would be thrown into chaos – well not chaos but you get you I mean (I hope).

But I must admit I have never heard/read/seen an incident as you are describing with the person with a high powered paramilitary rifle. Thankfully things haven’t got that bad here. But I can definitely see that happening. For instance, take the case of Tony Martin (I think that’s his name). He shot some burglars and killed one of them – I believe this case was followed by many gun enthusiasts in the US? Now this incident was right and wrong on many levels, for a start Tony should have never shot anyone – even if they were burglars. But should he have the right to defend his home? Yes of course. But the main factor in this case was the gun, if the gun wasn’t available to Tony then he wouldn’t have shot and killed anyone.

Now to answer your question, some of the things that are happening in the US do certainly sound like the stuff that is taking place in London and Birmingham.

There have been moments in my life where I was scared but not scared enough to carry a gun or knife. As to the knife you carry around would you actually use it against someone? Knowing that if you dealt a lethal blow that you could actually kill that person, I don’t think you would – for the simple reason that you have a conscience – and it wouldn’t bear that you killed someone.

Hope I haven’t upset anyone with my comments, also apologies for my late reply.

If I was thinking of carrying a gun around, I might want to know if carrying a gun around is actually safe? Like this previous thread says, could you use it knowing that you might actually kill someone? I wonder too how many times someone who carries a gun is assaulted and loses the gun, or is shot themselves, or accidentally shoots someone else?

Also...back on topic, ADAMJ has your uncle considered carrying a Taser or less lethal weapon? It sounds like he is responsible in that he is taking appropriate steps to certification. I am wondering if the certification includes not lethal use info?

Categories of persons prohibited from receiving firearms included in the NICS Index:
http://www.fbi.gov/hq/cjisd/nics/nicsindex.htm

1) Persons who are aliens and are illegally or unlawfully in the United States

2) Persons who have renounced their U.S. Citizenship

3) Persons who have been adjudicated as a mental defective or have been committed to a mental institution

4) Persons who have been discharged from the armed forces under dishonorable discharge conditions

5) Persons who are unlawful users of or addicted to any controlled substance

6) Persons who are federally disqualified when a record is not already included in NCIC, III, or the NICS Index

If the government could actually enforce this, then there would be fewer criminals with guns. But, the government cannot, so more criminals have guns.

Private sector (Not-FBI) background checks often reveal more information than the NCIC check. Typical background search and check includes: Current phone number, address, address history for 30 years, age, birthdates, household members, relatives, associates, property ownership, lawsuits, marriage, divorce, criminal records check, sex offenders, terrorist watch, bankruptcy, tax liens

Holy thread bump batman.

Holy google search batman lol