Palestine is declaring a state of emergency, citing US threats of sanction and Israel halting payments of tariffs (not really taxes, per se).

I did the math. Probably won't suprise most of you.

Palestine has 160+ million a month in govt. salaries alone.

Tariffs from israel pay out at 45 day cycle, for 55 million.

They will, at that rate, meet with a 1.26 billion deficit PER year!!!

Their economy is critically finite.
Their primary source of non-funded income is in exports.
Their primary source for exports is in imports of non sustainable goods.
(This makes them a "manufacturing company")
95% of the imports into Palestine originate in Israel.
70% of the exports from Palestine are destined for Israel.

One month of total financial sanction from Israel at this point will destroy them. completely. even if they gave them the 110 million and FORWARDED them the 55 million for April... Palestine would be very hard pressed to exist.

So, those of you who think Israel would be more humane in sanctioning Palestine (which they can legally do, and some of their citizens are proposing) don't realize how dependent upon Israel that Palestine truly is.

No border movement, no rendered Tariffs, no pleas to the international community will save Palestine from their most dangerous threat of collapse if they persist in not recognizing Israel.

Where is Bin and Mahmoud? I thought they where going to save the Palestinians.

Clearly, they need some objective thinkers, and alot of money. I see a civil war brewing between the Fatah and the Hamas if the Hamas can not ratify their political responsibilities.

Or...I see something happening...

In a hitler-esc style of scapegoating, they'll try to be more aggressive against Israel. Perhaps rally Iran(which would be stupid, but entirely possible) and try to launch an attack.

I don't think this will happen, but people do dangerous shit when they are desperate

cue the sri lanka female suicide bomber who just faked being pregnant to try and kill a military official.

thanks, you @#$%ing @#$%... now, no pregnant woman will have her dignity in the eyes of the guards.

oh indeed so. it was VERY wise for the US, Israel AND the EU to halt their subsidies. they are winning against the democratically elected Hamas now!!!!!11111oneoneone AND against the Palestinian population!!!!!1111oneoneagain!!!1111

oh. that was such a nice decision. it really, REALLY forwards all peace initiatives now!!111oneone The palestinians will now indeed open their eyes and say that they are treated fairly!!!!111oneoneandagainandagain. And Israel is not to blame in their situation. Noooooo's. After all they only had 30 years of completely destroying PA infrastructure.

(but hey. if they "attack" us. it is "terrorism" and we should launch a few more multi-million missiles to "off" their "militants" *wink* *wink*)

raum. that post made me angry!

Wow...that was completely and utterly inaccurate.

Its so easy to blame Israel...again as you are doing....

But what about the 30 of hating and killing jews?

And they elected TERRORISTS!

But....ALL of the EU is wrong. And the US. And of the course the evil zionist Israel. And the UN. And everyone.

Because they all know that the money would be used to fund more terrorism...

Seriously....take off your PA colored glasses...

Common Brains, They either take away their ability to make bombs or we bomb them. I think they have chosen the right response for now.

raum's post is clear and true. The next time a pregnant woman starts walking towards the guards at a check point or border crossing, they will remember what happened the last time, some people ruin it for everyone.

A pregnant woman used to be a beautiful thing, now it has the potential to be a bomb, totally the opposite of what it used to be and now the reaction will be the same.

yeah. it was a bit unrational - reading it again today. not much like me. sorry for that.

@dkreifus: Palestinians can elect whomever they want. That is a strange part of democracy.

Second of all, you step into that one side thinking where you just cry terrorism whenever you see name hamas appear. Completely ignoring that they have built schools, that they do a lot of charity, and that they have filled up holes in the Palestinian society left by the Palestinian Authority, because they had no money.

You can't call Arafat a terrorist, then act suprized when fundamentalists take over, call those terrorists as well, and say you hope they will be replaced by... wel, Israel will call the next governement of Palestinia terrorists as well, whomever wins.

I strongly believe that everybody who actually lives in Palestinia sees hamas from a totally different perspective then we in the West. Surely they have terrorist wings, but they are a social movement just as well (= and social in terms of "society")

On the other hand, I really don't think one can blame Israel for what it's trying to do: completely destroy the enemy. They are so powerful in this conflict, they have all the economic means, the military means and the support of the worlds only superpower. They can suffocate Palestinia, sit back and let the rotting process continue. Nobody would be truly surprized if this ends in civil war, and Israel would say that it's impossible to come to peace with such barbaric people, finalize the wall, take all the good bits and win the conflict.

I don't think Israel ever was closer to total victory then today...

So...do acts of good deed.. (evidence?) mean a group is not a terroristic group?

Their goal the success of PA and the destruction of Israel and the Jews. So I wouldn't be suprised if they used blood money to build schools. Becuase in those schools, more 'Anti-Jew' rhetoric can be taught.

"We're good! We build school. Hate those Jews! They take our money away. They bomb innocent children! We are just fighting back!"



I don't doubt Hamas is seen differenent in the PA than by us... but if it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then guess what..its a duck.

Hamas is a terrorist organization. Taliban anyone?

and living with the choice you made is often a harsh but necessary lesson. I maintain these people have had no time, means, or experience to truly make a competent democratic election. This was "which Alpha male is going to rip other's throat out with the approval of the people?" No one else was even ABLE to vie for power.



This goes back to my post wondering "which path will they take?" The first post I made saying "lessee if they can mature into a solid government on the basis of their idealogy of what is best for the people of Palestine is best for Palestine. Unfortunately, they didn't take that route. And I am sad, I truly gave them the benefit of the doubt, and held my breath hoping they would say "we don't like Israel, but, eh? what can you do? The point is clear, they are our neighbors and best we make sure no one lauches attacks on Israel from Palestine, so we don't get implicated in the retaliation."

I seriously wish palestine would have went the way of Switzerland. i.e. "We are neutral,.. UNLESS you bring that fight here, and then YOU, who ever YOU ARE are the ENEMY. and we will beat your a$$ with a pocketknife."

If you look in section 22 of the US State Code, you will see the operative definition of the term terrorism. HAMAS easily applies and was founded on that basis, and has offered no change of course or recanting the paramiltant elements of their idealolgy. Worse still, they will not prevent other anti-Israeli terrorist efforts from using their country as a strategic point. I am certain if they had the means that Israel had, they would go on a vacation, use the forces of Palestine to decimate Israel, and go back and systematically execute all signs of Jewish upheaval.

Face it, Palestine got hustled because they put a man on the table with their chips who would rather make sure he is only playing with red cards, instead of learning how to gamble, and none of the people who usually invest in this consistently losing trip to Vegas want to add to the disaster of this man's game.

I might even compare this to loaning a blind man with tourette's syndrome a thousand dollars at the black jack table. no point. He can't see whats going on, and he can't keep his mouth shut. even if you do win anything, its not worth the pain and stress.

Palestine as it is would never had made the compromise Israel did.

------------

Brains, despite what you feel, I do not enjoy the destruction of Palestine.

The fact that you mention that the Palestinians are not ready for elections is a call YOU make. A pretty daft and pretentious one I must say...

The US governement even feels Iraqi's are ready to vote, why on earth shouldn't Palestinians be "ready" (I'll tell you: because we don't like who they vote for). I have said it before and I'll say it again: Palestinia is (after Israel) the most democratic Middle-Eastern nation in view of elections (and parties being able to freely participate). More free then US allied nations like Egypt, Jordan,...

Interesting point you make there: The only true answer to that statement is that this conflict wouldn't even be there in the first place. If Palestinians had the firepower to really hurt the Israeli people, Israel would have looked for a peace treaty decades ago. Now it has it hands free to send in tanks, planes, and military personnel whenever it sees fit. It can build a wall without being disturbed. Wars usually end because the people (NOT the leaders) tend to get fed up with the human casualties and the economic disaster that comes along with it. In a conflict with a balance of power that is so out of touch, you need an external power to come to peace. And that is why it's a damn shame the US has chosen sides in this conflict. If the USA would be truly neutral (and not support the gigantic economical deficits Israel faces yearly because of this war), this conflict would have been solved long ago.

@dkreifus: I'm not saying I support the path hamas took, certainly the suicide bombers (obviously, I would add), I'm just saying hamas stepped into a gap created by Israel (by suffocating the Palestinian authority), and the Western nations (by allowing Israel to do that).

I always feel historical comparisons are bad, but let me use this one: It's often said that the peace treaty signed after World War I, was the direct reason for WWII: the price Germany had to pay was so high that the economy fell apart, the society almost fell apart and Hitler could come to power using nationalistic feelings. That is lesson nobody should forget...

@the taliban remark: You know when the taliban became terrorists? On the 12th of September 2001... The day before nobody could care less what the official regime of Afghanistan did to it's people.

Well, being that between the 2 of these nations, we have Bush and Hamas, the democratic way hasn't really shown good ways of working.

You've also ignored the fact that years ago Arafat was a terrorist. And despite what he did publically, everyone knew he was still a terrorist, and wanted the attacks on israel to continue...

During the raid on Arafats compound in Ramallah, documents signed by Arafat showed that Arafat compensated the families of suicide bombers. He allocated cash to militant groups.

What about when the PA tried to smuggle in $10 million worth of illegal weapons from Iran. Known as the Karine A affair, Arafats senor fiancial advisor, Fuad Shubaki was quite central in that whole thing

K2, I'm calling a flag on the play.

Without sounding pretensious, look at what I said.



The reason is simple. They did not vote in a government, they voted in the neighborhood gang. You know, back in the day, the gang gave all the kids a dollar, to carry bags of groceries home for the old women, he tithed well at the church. He did good BY the people. Problem is he did no good ON BEHALF of the people. The only reason they were needed was to hold down the turf,.. but the turf they held down for their own business, and they just knew they had to be good by the people.

and i don't care how many swingsets they make:
http://www.pmw.org.il/tv-hamas.htm

and I think making music videos of shahada (killing for Allah) where the guy gets his 72 hos in heaven is a GREAT way to bring some much needed clarity to the EVENTS and EFFORTS of the Palestinian Authority to enrage its people to destroy Israel. http://www.pmw.org.il/tv%20part10.html

or how about that favorite of all the little boys and girls of palestine:

What is dearer to us than Al-Aqsa?
Shake the earth, raise the stones
You will not be saved O Zionist from the volcano of my country's stones
You will not be saved O Zionist from the volcano of my country's stones
You are the target of my eyes
I will even willingly fall as a shahid
I will even willingly fall as a shahid
Allah Akbar O the young ones
[PA TV, March 2002 - June 2003, repeatedly]

-------------

*note* a shahid is someone who dies fighting for Allah.

Do you know what Palestinian HAMAS cadidates compared their sruggle to, VIETNAM. and touted it as the stretegy to their success.

please...

you people are defending people you don't know. who are WILLING to commit genocide to secure their own delusion.

and the teens who grew up praying for a kalishnikov are old enough to vote... yeah, they're ready to vote.

---------

and for the record i don't feel alot of Americans are given the information they need to vote. Look at when Bush beat Gore, it suddenly became front page news that we have an electoral college, cause quite a few of the people who voted for Gore thought the popular vote was more than a thermometer for presidential election approval.

and these people look at what issues. I know alot of people who said "who is most likely to make pot legal, hmm. Gore." or "I might need an abortion, Gore." that is not what you take to the polls, if you are responsible.

------

and for the record the Taliban was referred to IN POLICY as commiting a an act of terrorism in 1993, which has been in the US State Code since 1986, under reagan. The introduction was controversial to Democrats. We spent more than 7 years trying to negotiate the necessity of the group, and the ability to grow into something more. but they refused. so we repossessed the authority they assumed for not standing down.

all of our problems with the Taliban were because we gave them the benefit of the doubt, and had them leveraged against us in the UN periodically. that only goes so far, and when they lost the UN's support in 2001, they were exposed.

yes he was indeed, but let's forget that, right? I mean Sharon was held personally responsible for Sabra and Shatillah and he became prime minister twice. Oh that's true. Ambious told me in that other thread that was twenty years ago and I should forget it.

raum: you keep on posting links to sites which are an insult to our intelligence. they rehearse what YOU want to hear and you swallow it as if it were sweets.

that introduction to the "Hamas Head: Terrorism will continue" video reads:

------
Just two days before its sweeping election victory of January 25, 2006, the Damascus-based leader of Hamas, Khaled Masha'al was interviewed by Al-Arabbiya TV. In the interview he said that Hamas will continue its terrorist campaign, that it will never recognize Israel and that it has a staged plan to destroy the Jewish state.
------
he does not talk about "terrorism", but about resistance; he does even less talk about "a staged plan to destroy the Jewish state". Be real raum! You are intelligent enough to pick out these blatant exaggerations and false interpretations, aren't you?


raum, you also mentioned that "you truly gave them the benefit of the doubt, and held your breath hoping they would say "we don't like Israel, but, eh? what can you do? The point is clear, they are our neighbors and best we make sure no one lauches attacks on Israel from Palestine, so we don't get implicated in the retaliation."

that you seriously wish palestine would have went the way of Switzerland. i.e. "We are neutral,.. UNLESS you bring that fight here, and then YOU, who ever YOU ARE are the ENEMY. and we will beat your a$$ with a pocketknife.""

isn't that what Palestine did?! they've been humiliated for years. been attacked for years - now they retaliate. not with pocketknives, but with pocketbombs and pea shooters.


and even if these numbers are exaggerated, that page does contain references and verifiable data (through other sources). It paints a very dire picture. but hey... PA is to blame here!

THEY'VE BEEN ATTACKED FOR YEARS!!!!!!!???!?!?!?!

What the fuck did they do to Israel all these years? Have a fucking campfire and offer them smores?

What about Arafat and how he starting attacking Israel and calling for war in 1967-approx..

like so?!

and so?

Yea..cause those sources are fair and balanced

The fact that the heading is Massacres Against Palestinians is already a dead give away of how neutral that site is

like I said before: these numbers may be exaggerated, but it still gives you an impression - AND you have references in that second site. you can do your own research - which I know you won't though. It just does not fit your view one the situation.

See dk. That is the big difference between you and me: I am neutral. I see aggression from both sides and ignore none. I see PA "terrorists" explode on busses. I see Israel's state "terrorism" as well. I think the latter is worse, as that is not an individual doing a vile act of desperated terror, it is cold-blooded and ordered aggression.

see, thats why I had to start using other words.

so i use the ones they use.

sahada = dying while killing others for Allah.
(will get you the 72 "Dark Eyes" (i.e. interpreted, and largely depicted as "virgins" by the palestinian authority as a reward for those who commit sahada, under the pretense of "resisting occupation.")

sahid = one who commits sahada
(literally means, witness, or more appropriately "one who has witnessed")

where are the israeli Sahid?

they are conscripted and volunteer citizens in established roles with a code of miltary justice and protocol.

not ecstatic people getting to heaven by taking as many Jews with them.

and now, its not just about israel,.. they call for attacks EVERYWHERE.

so, now, Brains,.. yeah conflict sucks.

but has israel come out and said "France likes Muslims, attack!"

Conversely, what has PA done of any benefit to any nation other including themself than whine "we were here first!!!" when there is only conflicting evidence to dispute that claim, and they refuse to allow the research into the archeology of the area (and accused the Jews of "planting" evidence the land is historically populated with Jews, even under Arab and Muslim occupation?

I will be open to an honest assessment of the wealth of this nation... but I will not be suprised if you don't find any.

You just ignore what I say. I have pointed out how PA is being led, and has been led by TERRORISTS.

Lets see..Israel and Jordan, Israel and Egypt both signed peace treaties....

Lets look at the most recent peace process, the roadmap to peace.

Step 1: PA was supposed to make a visible effort to curb the terroristic attacks on Israel....

Step 2: Israel was supposed to dismantle settlements...

March 2001, Israel began dismantling. How was the PA doing with terrorism?

Thats just one example...

and Brain..I dont see you being neutral at all in this. You only see Israel being bad because it is, in your eyes, the agressor. I stopped looking for evidence, because 1. you argue against saying Israel is bigger, more organized. 2. Your evidence is biased, and not evidenec.

So if you won't use real evidence, neither will I.
Raum has done an incredible job citing lots of sources.

I cited evidence of how Hamas has no interest in peace. They want the Jews dead. They teach it in their books.

How can anyone possible try to comprimise with someone who denies their right to exist, and wants them dead?

to be neutral,..

HAMAS want Israel gone, and *Zionism* eradicated. COMPLETELY OFF THE CONTINENT.
(if not the face of the earth.)

and though they do not explicitly call for the death of all Jews they consider it an acceptable and in some cases, ideal, means to achieving their goal of having no existence of Israel on their continent.

and those who believe they don't want the continent,..

one word: Darfur.

your memory fails you! the date of the Bush administration-backed Roadmap is 2003. Certainly not 2001.

here is what the PA did (biased evidence? ): http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3030652.stm

Fatah, Jihad AND Hamas pledge a cease-fire!

Israel's initial reaction was saying that by saying the truce announcement would be ignored by Israel!

and they did: they approved building more settler homes (going against their part of the roadmap) and started building a wall on 1967 borders. Reacting to these Israeli initiatives, Hamas repeatedly warned they would not keep the ceasefire if Israel continued. Israel did, so August 12th 2003, Hamas "struck" Israel.



or this period of PA calm, cited here: http://board.iexbeta.com/index.php?s=&show...ndpost&p=561301

how do you explain Israel's behaviour there? Or are the links and facts mentioned there also "biased"?!


biased? you must base yourself on these two sites I linked in my first post on this page?!



I mentioned that there is conflicting evidence and that the truth would be "somewhere in the middle", no?!

Y'know..you never actually defend the evidence that I cite that can't be argued.

dammit..all our posts are getting me confused.

Elsewhere, I've posted clear cut evidence that Arafat was a terrorist.

Also, I refer to the start of the Clinton Roadmap for peace

Terrorists ceasing fire doesn't mean anything. MOST countries have a rule of no negotiating with terrorists. Israel doesn't either. And the PA was supposed to make a visible effort to break up militant groups.

A cease fire is hardly that.

Also, Israel continued to attack militants. Yup..thats what you do when you have terrorists attacking you. You show no weakness.




There isnt conflicting evidence. The fact that Hamas, as a government body, hasn't said contrary, shows that it is not in the middle. It is simply put. They want the Jews dead...

I'm just going to agree to disagree. I really don't have the energy lately due to other stuff in life to continue this

I hear you...

This is a war conflict, and just like in any war conflict you somehow are forced to side with somebody... And like in any war conflict, emotions take over, and like we all know humans can lose all humanity during war.

I had a friend who went to work for the red cross, and they asked her whether she wanted to assist in Ramallah. When I saw her (years ago) she told me she was there when Israeli troops entered the ministery of education to destroy computers, books, report cards and teaching material. She said there was such hatred in the way the troops destroyed those buildings.

The official reason the army gave back then was of course "anti-terror"... But I will admit that from that day onwards, I gathered some sympathy for the Palestinian side of the story. Simply because that act seemed so unfair towards (school)kids, and the Palestinians don't even have the power to react to these things... The only thing they can do is start from scratch, again. I don't think any Israeli kid ever has received less education because of this entire conflict.

By the way, she went there being pretty balanced (she certainly wasn't known as left-wing or anything), but of course, when living amongst one party she became involved and unbalanced. And I don't blame her, I don't think you can find a living soul on this planet who can look with a totally unbiased look towards this conflict.

Maybe she is the main reason that my bias came into play. I'm sure that many people have heard first hand stories from disgusting things done by Palestinians and can't look neutral to the conflict anymore.

What makes it that people can grow such blind hate towards each other, just because of a different religion, skin colour or nationality...

really? like which? Link to the stories which you say are evidence - I can't accept your interpretation or opinion as evidence. That is clear.



... and I agreed he was, didn't I?! BUT - like Sharon who was held personally responsible for Sabra and Shatillah - Arafat too got elected.



well. coming from bloody attacks towards a ceasefire surely is a step in the right direction, no? So why did Israel insist on continuing its policies, while it could have said: "we'll give them the benefit of doubt!"?



This more or less is conflicting evidence! They want to live in peace with their neighbours.

there also is conflicting evidence on the textbooks.

truth in the middle?!

The problem with that letter was that other Hamas militants have come forward saying they won't live with Israel side by side...

So whats the deal?

I would fully welcome peace. But stop the suicde bombers, and then israel will stop retaliating. Its that simple.

I can completely understand that.... But I can pose a reason for their actions.... Its not an excuse by any means...

First and foremost, what happens in war is a brutal thing. We hear stories everyday of soldiers lives. They have a tough time. Your life is on the line daily, and you don't know when you'll see your loved ones ever again. Plus, war brings out alot of hostility, testosterone, anger, etc...(Vietnam, Iraqi War..etc)

So..now..put yourself in a soldiers shoes. Combined with all those feelings, they are destroying materials that are teaching the youth to martyr themselves by killing the evil Jews. The 'zionists' that should be wiped off the face of the earth.

For alot of these people, their grandparents were victims of the same mentality 60 years ago.

Let me share a personal story....

Many moons ago, about 15 years ago, I was selling candy on my street as a fundraiser. (You remember them from school, sell enough candy/stuff, get a prize)...

All my neighbors were pretty nice, either bought it or politely declined. I went to one house, about 10 houses down across the street from mine. A nice man, probably in his 30s or 40s answered the door. I did my speech and he seemed interested. Then he saw the front page of the brouchure, and saw it was through my temple. He said "Is this money going to Israel?" I answered that I didn't know. He said "I won't do anything that might support Israel or the Jews."

Imagine being 8 or 9....just trying to sell some candy to earn some stupid game or something... and hearing that.

If I worked for the army or whatever, and we had to go destory the materials in this mans house, I would easily feel the same anger those soldiers did. I would have such fury into destroying everything in his house. It wouldnt accomplish anything more than doing it 'more peacefully'. It's human.

Now..another aspect to look at....

Everyday people... children, men, women, babies, teenagers.. they are living their lives daily in fear. A nightclub/disco was bombed a few years ago. Filled with innocent teenagers. A bus full of people blown up for no reason than they just existed.

Now..you're one of these people. And you are a soldier..and you're told to go ruin/destory the books and propaganda that is fueling these bombings. Add in that your little sister was just blown up. Or your best friends dad. Or your classmate since you were 9..... You might be a little upset.

And Brains..before you say you should pray for these people and find peace another way.. we don't all have religion in our lives to your level, so thats not a solution to us all. (not meant to be insulting. I think your faith is a great thing).

oh, wait...



Ok, so "We want peace with our neighbors,.. but Israel is not one of our neighbors."

and why would I dare presume as much, you ask? Look further...

[quote]However Hamas, which won elections in January, has refused to recognise Israel's right to exist despite calls by international mediators, including the UN, for it to do so.[/quote]

Brains, here is some simple math reasoning.

If, for example... Palestine wants peace with its neighbors, AND refuses Israel's right to exist... that STRONGLY INDICATES THAT ISRAEL IS NOT ONE OF THE NEIGHBORS IT SEEKS PEACE WITH. I am sure HAMAS would love for Palestine to have peace (and common borders) with Jordan, Egypt, and Syria, and I am sure that is exactly what they mean.

The issue here is borders, which is the nature of most conflict between neghboring countries. How you resolve it is simple,.. you build a wall and wait for the tension to cease, or you find a common enemy or purpose. Look at the American war with Canada over borders. Look at Korea, Look at Vietnam, Look at Berlin, Look EVERYWHERE.

and the Palestinian claim to the land predating Jews is ridiculous. I say this as a product of studying ProtoHebraic Canaan for over two decades. They are not the Palestine of the British consulate, and certainly not the Palestine that was ProtoHebraic. and I bet you could test the genetic stock of the modern state of palestine, and find that they are refugees.

Face it, NEITHER of the peoples there fighting can claim ultimate origins to the Land. The prophecies and religious imports are exploited by both sides, to emphasize their point. NEITHER THIS PALESTINE OR THIS ISRAEL existed before the twentieth century, though both Jews and Arabs inhabited the area, all of which was called Palestine,.. and has NOTHING to do with the establishment of the state currently called Palestine, save they share a common name. Neither side is completely right, and both have had their share of official terrorism and sanctioned military action that Western temeperments would consider "extreme." Israel has developed FAR more, a great deal of which was established not just because the UN (not the US) agreed to the right for a Jewish state close to the origins of the their national identity (and besides millions had already gone there, and there had always been at least thousands). But the GREATEST contributions to Israel were a direct result of their HEISITANT admittance that their should in some way be a independent representation for the Arab notion of the Palestinian Identity, which is as social a Construct as the notion that all Jews in Israel are in some way native to the area. Were Palestine to extend that recognition to Israel, the would also recieve assistance. Many of Jewish stock in the current state of Israel had entire ancestry that never set foot in either the Valley of jordan, lands of Canaan, or the kingdoms of David or Solomon. During the exodus some Jews did not go to "The Chosen Land." They settled elsewhere, including Egypt, Greece, Persia, and throughout Europe.

The Separation of the two States of Israel and Palestine is clearly an attempt to resolve a postBritish Colonial Civil War based on secession of Palestine from the Trans-Jordan state of Israel, and a resolution that was to bring bring peace, and has yet to do so.

So, now that we have completely established both the israeli and palestinian identity as progenerated from this land are social contributions to the National identity, let's let that go.

I know hizbollah existed, and I know they have some interaction with the IDF, perhaps I know more about this than than some, but this is not about what was.

and you clearly have not read the CHARTER of HAMAS, which is foundational to their political stance. and if there is no revision of these policies, and the people CHOSE this group to represent them, Israel has the absolute right of considering them a hostile aggressor (albeit a less powerful one) and the US is FULLY right in considering them a bad investment, and a potential threat to an international ally.

Palestine is not our ally, and Israel hasn't always been. HAMAS better learn to play nice or they will betray all the sentiments of their people who do pray for peace. and America is becoming intolerant of sending our troops who determine friend or foe into harm's way for people who resent our very existence...

We are tired of people EXPECTING US to solve THEIR problems. because ours are kinda backed up... and no one else EVEN seems to care we have our own border issues,..

actually if you'd be able to project that story on the palestinians you could understand why some of them go as extreme as to blow themselves up.

you'd be able to understand why I say that Israel can stop this, since - if nobody would have given the order to go in in the first place - that school which got ransacked would not have happened.

you are right. it is human - so if you protect humans from venting their hatred (like in "don't go in; stay at the borders") - you evade aggressiveness like that.

I trust it you see the PA can not read individuals' minds - preventing them from strapping bombs around their wastes, talking to them and telling "don't go in; stay at the borders".

at least... so I hope.

http://www.israel-mfa.gov.il/MFA/Terrorism...ion%20-%20Major

take a look Brains. perspective, indeed.

I followed the link, and it gave me a "Request is not allowed. "

So they got nothing to hide???

the address is being parsed in my link above.

here is the ful text of the link:

israel-mfa.gov.il/mfa/terrorism-%20obstacle%20to%20peace/palestinian%20terror%20before%202000

raum. I never said I supported PA terrorism. Never, ever. I said I understand it.

yes. it offers perspective if you are totally blind to PA aggression. It does not for me. no new perspective in any way.

now, please do open YOUR eyes as well and objectively look at how IS has treated PA throughout the years. The picture is not any more rosier than the picture you painted of the PA with that (Israeli gov) link you posted. Far from it.

come to think of it...

what the US and the EU are doing to Palestine boils down to blackmail: recognize Israel; if not, you don't even get your own tax money back.

apparently "it is estimated that 25% of people in the West Bank and Gaza Strip depend upon the money", "If the PA remains unpaid/minimally paid for several months, it may cease to function.", "A protracted period in which the PA is disabled might result in the unravelling of a dozen years of donor efforts to build the responsible, accountable institutions needed for a future Palestinian state or for continued governance ad interim", "A deteriorating security environment could make it difficult for government, commerce and relief efforts alike to operate properly"... link

how does all that help to decrease "terrorism" exactly?

Well, brains, you are mixing things up there!

It's not the EU/US that is blocking tax money, it's Israel. And yes, you can call that theft of money. But the fact that the tax money first goes to Israel is of course a weird thing: Why would you give money to your enemy?

The problem with the EU/US is different: they have laws that call hamas a terrorist organization, and the aid they gave was charity. Nobody can be "forced" to give charity!

The EU is in a mixed position: most member countries are willing to give the money anyway, if it goes to the people directly.

The problem lies with the US. It seems now, that they want to play this hardball: they have said that the PA is now a terrorist organization (since hamas got elected). That not only means that all help to the PA should be halted (like the EU decided), but that all money belonging to the PA abroad should be blocked AND that all banks who work with money they know belongs to the PA can get in trouble!

We are now in the situation where banks in Palestina (who have branches in the Western world) are refusing money from abroad, because it could be labelled as "terrorist" money: that is why the aid promised by some Middle-Eastern nations can't get to the PA.

The idea Israel has (and again, it seems the US is following that idea) is to bring the Palestinians in such deep trouble that the point is reached where hamas will be forced to step down.

So the question is now: Will the EU be able to convince the US to leave this idea and together find a way to get money directly to the Palestinian people or not. There are rumours about a possible trust fund with the worldbank that would distribute money.

you are correct K2. I (consciously) oversimplified in my post.

my question remains though: how does it help to decrease "terrorism"?

and yours is a good one: will the EU be able to convince the US? I seriously hope so, as I would answer my question with: it does not. It increases "terrorism", as quite a lot of Palestinians are not happy they are not paid anymore because of their democratical choice. (a simplification again, but a sound one!). An increase huh?! I thought there was a "war on terror", so that "terrorism" would decrease?!

seriously, I do not understand international politics. Well, in fact I do, but at the same time I do not. How can international politics be so asinine as to fuck up their own cause?

we are not trying to "decrease" terrorism. we are trying to completely establish it is unacceptable.

if you cleave to terrorists, you suffer that fate you cleave to.

ALL the US has said is "renounce terror, acknowledge your neighbors, and maintain your commitment to those two things, and the welfare and security of your people." HAMAS has refused to do so. instead we got "Israel doesn't exist. bad, blah blah"

we said "you are not getting a DIME if you got that attitude"

they are not entitled to ONE dollar of my tax money, especially if it is uncertain how that dollar will be used.

we have continually provided aid, and maybe you don't realize this, but the "money Israel owes them" is because, as part of the peace, Israel was not going to charge them for electricity OFF ISRAEL's grid.

What we offered was the economic ability and contribution to make them a self-sustaining country. they have proven they are not yet ready for the conditions of that investment...

but make no mistake, the first payements went exactly where the next set would go, to pay PA's debt for electricity that they are accruing with Israel, who still has not hit them with rolling blackouts.

Israel is still giving them electricity. They are not required to.

think about that.

what if Israel backed off the border and just severed PA from the grid until they got their power.

PA is inpotent to deal with the reality of being a country especially disadvantaged due to political pressure limiting the feasibilty of charity. and the US as a country is rreasonably becoming intolerant of undue charity.

I am not a "Person of the Book," or a monotheist, and thus in their minds I am content being a "sub-human" who is likely to be beheaded by Muslims in power, I could care less for their religion which by word calls for my execution, and is STILL carried out in areas of the world where MY MONEY FOR MY EFFORTS is spent to secure their right to execute people for MY PHILOSOPHIES. Let them change or rot, just as a tree must choose every season.

..and sometimes it seems a tree simply lacks the biology to change, but nature does not cripple itself for the fear of losing the tree, nor does nature choose to make the season harsher to swiften the process of perdition.

Personally, I would ABSOLUTELY REFUSE CHARITY to anyone who does not establish separation of Church and State.

or perhaps you think a Muslim govt would donate money and effort to secure the country and comfort of a people who are established pantheists? Don't be foolish, for a Muslim to mourn my death is grounds for their own damnation in EVERY prominent sect of Islam embraced by a leader of that region of the world.

and just look at the letter from the President of Iran,.. what a complete lack of understanding. "I looked on a map for a country called Israel from the fifties and couldn't find it, George W." Well there wasn't a country called, The Islamic Republic of Iran, either, now was there? There wasn't a country called Palestine, either. or even a country called Iraq.

http://www.quarryhouse.free-online.co.uk/e.../Middleeast.jpg

but there were Jews in the Area,.. and many spent time in refuge until they had to leave. a testimony from one of some 150,000+

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?...&type=printable

or better yet, HERE: http://www.jimena.org/faq/faq.htm

the solidarity of the Jews in the middle east was precipitated by the terror ensued upon them, in eastern europe and THROUGHOUT Moslem Lands...., which was so prominent there was reason for legislation regarding them in the Middle East.

I don't think we will have to worry about the money situation to long, it looks like civil war is eminent.

Hamas-Fatah violence erupts in Gaza as western mediators consider aid cutoff

(1) err... all that, answering my question HOW exactly?

(2) stop posting these links ffs! we can throw thousands of similar pages around to each other and it proves nothing. there are testimonies good, bad and in-between for both sides!

(3) Hamas says "Israel doesn't exist" as stubbornly as the rest of the world says "(The democratically elected!!!) Hamas are terrorists". Which makes me see another foolish absurdity of "our" whole middle east policy next to the whole concept of "war on terror". A secondary reason for starting that fucked-up mini-coalition war was to "spread democracy". WHAT A FUCKING JOKE, that is! We are essentially saying: "You guys be democratical, but if you choose a government which we do not like, we boycot, blackmail and suffocate you until you DO choose one WE want to do business with." Truely, I can not believe no-one here seems to understand that this kind of attitude riles people up and makes them so pissing angry as to go to extremes!

As for some here saying "muslims are terrorists". I hated that kind of generalization before. I do even more because of this nice, little story.

I headed of to England over the WE. I have a company car with a fuel card. I nearly made a roundtrip towards Belgium with only one full tank of gas. Nearly. I got stuck in Dunkerque, France, about 20km from the Belgian border. An industrial zone. The middle of nowhere. My bank card, my Visa, nor my Total card were accepted by the machine. Stuck. 2300 at night. Nobody around. Then two guys I walked up to. Muslims, traditionally clothed. I explained my situation. As if by wonder they did not stab or shoot me. Nor did they blow themselves up right there. No. One of them ran (RAN!!) home to get HIS card. I said that 10 euro would largely do, so that is what i had. When I wanted to pay, he strongly discouraged me, saying it was ok. I had a 150 euro on me and about 20 times as much on my bank card. I was richer than him. I insisted. He stronly declined, wished me a good trip and walked away. I stood there looking at these "muslims". How despicable of them to treat me well. Not rob me, stab me, steal my car or rape my wife. Damn. The world's foundations crumbled around me. They were supposed to be angry because of mere cartoons ffs!

Question is: how many of you would do that?!

raum...all I can do now is shake my head.

You asked "how does this decrease terrorism?" I said "wrong question. we are not trying to DECREASE terrorism. our goal is not to decrease terrorism, so instad i told you the basis of our goal... which is simply outside the scope of your question



the links i posted were of Jews that ave historic lineage that NEVER included Eastern Europe, and are deliberately metioned and sourced, because you keep looking for sources (supposedly) and saying there are none. I was not showing "more atrocities by them zany middleeasterners" I was providing definitive evidence of a claim and evidence of Jews who never participated in the diaspora, and had integrated themselves into Arabic cultures,.. until through persecution, they sought refuge in israel, or left the region - EVEN BEFORE PALESTINE. the selctive logic is not something i am good at,.. I am aware of the harshness and extremity of Israel, which I DO NOT advocate. but in lieu of what they could do and have full right to do. and I still have not heard you acknoledge their are Jews who have lived in the middle east throughout the ages all jews suposedly left.

I do not say "do this", I am saying IF they truly sought the end of PA, they could have it in a week, tops.

and TO DATE, the US has no long history of supplying them with money, and they have no good history of knowing what to do with the money they do get. and the US gives money to Palestine's debt to keep their energy grid active, and YES I have to conform into perameters set by my employer for my money. I expect them to conform to the provisions of their investors for theirs. that is not extortion or smothering. that s not doing business with people who don't want the task you assign them.

I still feel that the vote was premature and reactionary. I feel there is NO Palestinian who is reasonably capable of understanding the global economy from a provisionary standpoint. When you have people untrained and uneducated to form leadership, you end up with a clown car of full occupancy,.. and it is only worse if their is a religious theocracy backing this.

My proposal was to at least get their nominees for leaders a BS in finance and policy management including civil rights, from some university, and in that four years, the PA is policed by EU or UN forces. then, four years later,.. have a campaign period. don't "isolate" the potential leaders, let them have frequent visits and work to enact policy that could be initially guided by EU or something. have voting responsilbities courses required when you register to vote, and SET UP A CIVIL VOTING AUTHORITY to congress with policy makers.

--------------



HAMAS were elected by vote, but not democratically. and Democracy is not easy. even those countires who have tried for centuries still work on the model continually. we agreed to give a great deal fo money to Palestine for the first time, after agreements for respect of sovereignty were established. thse have been rescinded by HAMAS, who the US gave a chance to reaffirm a position cohesive to our investments in the Middle EAst. If the investment is not lucrative, why should we feel compelled to invest? but at any rate, we do not have a history of investing money in Palestine, so our first agreement to do so blew up and we pulled out. Perfectly reasonable to not invest in seperationist states, but cooperative. Still, the US provides a good bit of material by non monetary support to PA. We also froze countries from investing the money we give them into this area, because they have other obligations to use that money. we are a expansionaist country, nto a not for profit charity. and NO I don't want people savagely treated, but I refuse to support the institution of theocracies that violate the essential tenets of self-determinism.

They can bear resentment that we have the right to not support their country financially if it refuses to accept the terms of that support, or they can grow up and realize that's the way things are, and it is a contingency including in the G8 agreement. I do not delight to see their resentment, but that is a sight I see often from other countries.

----------



All Muslims are not terrorists, but all Shahids are Muslims. actually, I hate the word terrorist. it is not really accurate. terrorism is para-militant acts upon noncombatants as propaganda to force an audience to be frightened or cmpelled into submission or specific action. the armenians were the "masters" for some time. but a jihadi shahid is more like a kamikaze pilot on a self destructive goal not designed to force an audience, but as the most viable form of attack they are capable of due to limited resources. the thing is the Armenians had FAR more potential for force and were coldly calculating,.. but a shahid is using everything at his disposal ina mad dash to manifest his destruction to soldify coviction in the rightness of his cause. in short a Jihadi Shahid is a sheep looking to be mutton, a terrorist never looked forward to suicide as an attainment,and didnt go through with it if he didn't have to.

I am far from saying Muslims are terrorists,.. but the essential tenets of a Islamic Religious Theocracy are religious intolerance for anything but Jews, Christians, and Muslims, and to the extreme that is the goal of jihadi.. I am against a religious theocracy of any type. killing someone for beliefs is heinous.



not suprising. glad you were ok. carry cash in the future. I never posed myself as being afraid of "those crazy brown people". I know Muslims, have well said, and they don't want my head, either. As I never limited myself to assume color or race or creed or social status implies criminal intent, I have walked through Oakland California and the worst parts of many other cities, including NYC and Philly and New Orleans without incident in the middle of the night.




how many times have I done that, you mean? I have done FAR more. hopefully everyone has greater limits to their ability to help someone, and yet sincere apprecation when someone helps them, because they realize no one OWES them that assistance.

hmm,

perfect stranger, less than fifteen words pass between us at a open meeting, and I invite him to stay in my living room, because he was on a pilgrimage and was not going to find a job sleeping in his car. I even buy him a fold up chair futon, and declare it his... no one sit on it but him, it is HIS space in MY home. I clean out a closet for him, and he ended getting a job in about three months. a girl was interested in me,.. I was affrimed celibate at the time, and I fixed them up. he stayed for a while, then he and she got engaged and moved back to ohio. I never got a dime from him, and he fell in love.

When spring comes, the grass grows by itself.

The problem with the Hamas or the Fatah, is neither is really trying to do anything for their people, I thought both the Hamas and the Fatah where Palestinians. You would think they would try to pull together for the bigger cause

The only cost for their own in fighting is their own peoples lives.



What ever happened here, neither side took in to consideration that children might be present. The young and the innocent seem to have little value to these people.

I've backed out of this thread for a bit..but I did see something that grabbed my attention...



You cannot possibly compare thsoe 2 things. Hamas is a PROVEN, self declared terrorist organization. There isn't a shadow of a doubt. Israel does exist. Who does Hamas think they are killing with their terroristic attacks?

To deny their existence is a joke. It's like when a 5 year old shoves his fingers in his ear and says "I can't hear you..."

All they have to do is accept that the country and people that have been living next door DO in fact have a right to exist. That if Hamas is truely for its people, and peace and harmony are what its people what, then it would accept it?

Instead... "I can't hear you..."





oh, and Israel has all the taxes collected in an Escrow account. It's not like they're out partying with it. They're holding it for the PA, for when Israel is recognized.





Israel Gives Hamas Deadline to Negotiate









Palestinians to Get International Aid



So..Israel is fine with the people being helped. They just don't want the terrorists touching the money..seems pretty fair to me.





Oh..and PA is about to run out of petrol and gas because they owe a energy company $27 million. But they accuse it being Israeli influence. Name any other business in the world who would continue to offer services to someone who owed them $27 MILLION!



Hopefully the people will see that the problem is Hamas, and not the 'Quartet'

hmm,..

someone must actually be reading the advises I send. Israel cut fuel to PA and will cut fuel based power to palestine in 7 months and establish permanent static borders if there is no final negotiation that recognizes Israel by the end of the year.

I concur. This is exactly what I was talking about. The best solution to peace in Palestine is show them the reality of a humanitarian crisis that far exceeds notions of pride.

I can already hear Brains say it.

BUT WHY WOULD ISRAEL DARE DO THAT?

simple, they owe 26 million dollars in gasoline bills alone. would your petrol company let you run a tab of 26 million dollars in gas? thought not.

um, it might also have to do with the 20 HAMAS operatives who were just arrested in Jordan smuggling Iranian made made missiles into a weapon stockpile including GRAD rockets, LAU launchers, landmines and firearms...

if you don't have a truck, you can't really haul that kind of gear.

And fortunately Jordan is holding ANYONE responsible for staging or launching or trafficking in conjuction with a possible attack from their national soil.

that is a point of maturity Palestine MUST establish. Israel has a way to go toward peace,

and Israel has given them until the end of the year to establish a relationship of peace.

that might seem extreme, but Palestine is refusing to pay bills for the energy and these kind of alowances are not ever given to anyone else, and it isn't like Israel doesn't have debt accruing either. So, the 26 million they owe to Dor, the petrol supplier has to be paid, or supplies of gasoline run out on Thursday.

-----------

and the people of Palestine will have a three month trial of emergency funds that will be provided by the Quartet, that will circumvent the HAMAS. It is intended to show our desire for a end to the humanitarian struggles in the region, and besides I never said NONE should support the people of Palestine. Just that ISRAEL should cut them off until they are recognized, and no support should go through HAMAS if they refuse to adjust their ideology to be a peaceful presence in a diverse global community with Israeli neighbors.

YES it sucks that we even have a single person in the world starving or cold or hungry, but it is literally dealing with children, in a political sense. and children only understand allowance and incentive until they become secure in their values, which will take collective Palestine many years.

Israeli Dor Petrol says "no more gas for you. you owe 26 million dollars already. you make peace by end of year or no electricity for you and border stay same. war been here 6 decades and we tired of it."

Palestine will have no gas supply from Israel by thursday, after accruing over 25 million dollars in debt..

So let's see what happened since Israel's announcement to do what I suggested.

We have:

1. A three month trial of Foreign aid from US and EU finds a way to get in without going to HAMAS.

2. humanitarian trust funds are established for the people of PA. The tarriffs in escrow will hopefully be directed here.

3. Fatah and HAMAS propose truce and Fatah hearitly endorses negotiation with Israel.

stay tuned... we might have some progress, if HAMAS feels the pressure of the consequence of choice, and recieves some influence from Fatah and coersion of the people who feel the relief.

(I apologize for my sense of humor, which was make the Dor comment like the stereotype chinese buffet guy,.. but that is the way I pictured it. so get thicker skin. its just gas.)

err... Hamas proposing truce?

i think they are commited to a cease-fire since January last year!

and yet there was an exposed HAMAS plot to assassanate key leaders of the Fatah influence, including Abbas
and there deadly firefights in the Gaza after the Fatah found out,
and stockpiles of new weapons have been found by Jordan, when there's no money for wages.
and there is strong evidence of extensive recruiting efforts in Syria and Jordan.


funny that.

THere is a different between a truce and peace.

A truce means you stop attacking. To have peace in this case, you'd have to accept the other side as having a right to exist.

there is indeed, isn't there?

first step towards peace would be to cease fire though, wouldn't it?

hamas has (stopped attacking). has israel?