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Brains
This recent article on BBC News caught my interest. Reading it I was amazed to see nothing but the same type of approach raum gave me in the other thread. It talks about profiling, individuals, Madrid, London, who these guys were, what they were thinking, how their youth was (ed) and so on. There is just no discourse on how this all came to happen. Where did terrorism originate? What are the "root causes". From all the babbling back and forth - and from that complete article, only one paragraph cut it for me (well two actually, but the one quoted below sums it up).

QUOTE
I felt that the conference rather ignored some of the political influences on suicide bombers, like the world events -Afghanistan, Iraq, the Middle East, Chechnya, Bosnia and others - that provide a basic motivation for many of them.

- Paul Reynolds, BBC News (I guess)

THAT indeed is what is missing, what I have been asking for. Where is that report on political influences creating suicide bombers? Paul goes back to Bosnia and Afghanistan, I think you have to go back all the way until after WW2.

I find it pretty amazing that all that conference talked about "now", "instances", "individual profiling" and not about Western foreign diplomacy which - to me - is clearly where the causes need to be sought.

my .02c.
raum
the strategy predated the western influx of culture or influence.

Al-Hassan, leader of the hassashin, was the person who formally instituted assassanation, and the use of personally carried explosives was sometimes employed.

In fact it was Al-Hassan Sabah who provided the framework for the CIA textbook on assassination.

http://www.iranian.com/History/Aug97/Sabbah/

this is, IMHO, the best operative definition for "terroristic" activity, which is an Assassination which requires or involves publicity.

http://www.iranian.com/History/Aug97/Sabbah/

Look at the follwing subsection.

QUOTE
7. Explosives

Bombs and demolition charges of various sorts have been used frequently in assassination. Such devices, in terroristic and open assassination, can provide safety and overcome guard barriers, but it is curious that bombs have often been the imp lement of lost assassinations.

The major factor which affects reliability is the use of explosives for assassination. the charge must be very large and the detonation must be controlled exactly as to time by the assassin who can observe the subject. A small or moderate explosi ve charge is highly unreliable as a cause of death, and time delay or booby-trap devices are extremely prone to kill the wrong man. In addition to the moral aspects of indiscriminate killing, the death of casual bystanders can often produce public reacti ons unfavorable to the cause for which the assassination is carried out.

Bombs or grenades should never be thrown at a subject. While this will always cause a commotion and may even result in the subject's death, it is sloppy, unreliable, and bad propaganda.

Ten pounds of high explosive should normally be regarded as a minimum, and this is explosive of fragmentation material. The latter can consist of any hard, [illeg] material as long as the fragments are large enough. Metal or rock fragments should be walnut-size rather than pen-size. If solid plates are used, to be ruptured by the explosion, cast iron, 1" thick, gives excellent fragmentation. Military or commercial high explosives are practical for use in assassination. Homemade or improvised e xplosives should be avoided. While possibly powerful, they tend to be dangerous and unreliable. Anti-personnel explosive missiles are excellent, provided the assassin has sufficient technical knowledge to fuse them properly.


I guarantee you the most political influence motivating a shahid is personal, and parroted from a influencial leader, and never subject to criticism or veracity.

it would take a Westerner to ask "what would the political motivations be, of this man who is willing to swallow stones to keep his stomach from shirinking to the point of death, while he uses opium to achieve a bloodthirsty hunger to destroy all who oppose his sense of reality?"
Brains
err... your point being? huh.gif

i mean your etymological approach to terrorism sure was a welcome refresher course, but it does not really answer the question at hand, although "I guarantee you the most political influence motivating a shahid is personal, and parroted from a influencial leader, and never subject to criticism or veracity." seems to be reiterating a part of what I seek. What is the influencial leader's discourse which the shahid parrots?

btw: I am talking about Al Quaeda-ish terrorism here, not about PA militant terrorism.
raum
are you kidding, listen to the crap they say.

(and i am not kidding you)

fattwa on potato chips (because filthy western infidels are using them to make muslim children sterile)

fattwa on pokemon

fattwa on anything/.

the real truth is our world is a modernistic world that has little chance of integrating with traditional Islamic fundamentalism, and the lure of modern conventions pulls the people from their culture, which was at one time dominated by religious authority that just can't stand up to a world full of modern delights and horrors.

so, they are breaking down, and it will be a violent breakdown, and has been. and any issue they have with progress is blamed on Western society and its "crusaders."

our collective greatest crime against them is having a world of cool stuff that doesn't fit into their antiquated doctrine.

militarily there are conflicts and some of these have had ramifications, but if you think the average shahid knows this, you are sadly mistaken.

If it were about who did wrong to the muslims, the muslims would be blowing themselves up. oh, wait, they are.
Brains
ah. now we are talking! (or you could say: "now brains, you hear an opinion which goes along with what you think", but regardless).

That is exactly what I think as well. The muslim extemists are out of touch with what we want, do, the way we live. I have that opinion, you have it as well, but who are we?! That is why I would like to read that kind of analysis in an official report, so that it can be made the official approach to tackling the problem we have here (and they have with us).

Since - and I am not at all saying this would happen overnight, far from it - if we can promote a useless war in such a way that more than half of certain countries are convinced it is needed, I am sure we can work on the traditional Islamic perception of our world and align our views - marketing, propaganda, just plain old dialogue, name it how you want. Again: that takes decades, but that would be the only way to resolve this peacefully and would actually diminish the terrorist thread over time instead of increase it like is happening now.
raum
the peaceful indoctrination can only go so far when the people you see understanding from only want the conveniences and advancements of your culture, and will no hesitate to burn down the closest building if someone draws a picture. You can't have that kind of absurdity AND Playstations.

We tried peaceful education to the point we were left exposed to the attacks of others. They ultimately blame us for making a world where success and progress are not contingent on their religiously identified parameters. We just can not help that. I personally REFUSE to slow my own progress just because others seek to limit their own, I do not cater to obsolete idealogies.

Islam must change or die, just like all the other religions. and these most extreme sects have only gotten this much tolerance because of the imposed guilt associated with exercising power over dramatically underclassed opposition.

personally, I have no hesitation in using actual manifestations of power to eliminate fruitless notions and delusions that just reinforce victim mentalities, which ultimately just breed privateering in the name of social reform.

I will not hesitate to prove people wrong, beyond any shadow of a doubt, just as i would hope my fellow humans would not hesitate to show me a truth that would clear some of the confusion that is systematic of human thought.

dkreifus
Brains..were you inquiring to the origins of 'terrorism' as a whole, or specifically Muslim terrorism?
K2
QUOTE(raum @ May 1 2006, 20:51) *
fattwa on pokemon
hell yeah! Throw in a fatwa on the teletubbies and I'm yours!!! yes.gif
raum
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/n...dia/1269050.stm

fatwa on pokemon.

because it promotes violence and gambling (which is defined by one person winning and another person losing; in a Muslim game, I guess everyone's a winner! ), and it teaches evolution, which is obviously a Jewish conspiracy.

Can you imagine the looks on the faces of the Japanese entertainment and gaming industry when they find out they are really just Jewish mindslaves to pump out anti-Islamic propoganda?

*sigh* *bang head* *groan* *sigh* *rinse & repeat*

Brains
@dk: "muslim terrorism" - excluding Palestinian terrorism. The 9/11 kind of terrorism, Madrid, London, Sri Lanka, Indonesia, Al Quaeda! That kind of terrorism.

@raum: I do not agree with none of your paragraphs.

the cartoon story already is a manifestation. I am seeking for a historically founded root causes as to why that happened - and peaceful indoctrination (if you want to use that word) IS a possibility still. You seem to be pointing out we tried that. Apparently we did not good enough. Or talked one way and walked the other. Here goes: the good is interred again, the evil lives after them. If we do 20 "good deeds" towards "them" and 1 bad. People will remember the bad part (more sensation or more emotions or whatever the reason). Whatever good we did, it is not upheld by the bad stuff or these attacks would not happen. What is that bad stuff and where is the report investigating it?
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