they gave that guy LIFE!!!!

that scum is going to be supported for life, and they will even retrofit his toilet so it doesn't face Mecca.

and we will not have social security in a decade.

that's it.

give me a [rusty dull] box knife and his stupid a$$, I'll go to jail tomorrow to put his a$$ in the ground. Actually, I'll beat him to death with it still in the packaging.

but no, my tax dollars will be put to use to protect him from attacks.

oh the friggin irony.

We got a day without an illegal immigrant, and we did fine,.. but what's it take for us to get a day without a terrorist?

since raum failed to even say the name of the guy he is so pissed off about, here ya go: Zacarias Moussaoui. i figure that's pretty important for this thread.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4943196.stm

edit: and this guy had better be under high security for the rest of his life. don't think a few of his jail buddies wouldn't love to shove a shank in his stomach.

edit 2: and i actually like this more than the death penalty. let this dude rot in prison

Considering that this man would have taken his own life anyway, I think that life is a good punishment.

Jizzy: Thanks for putting his name. Otherwise I would've had no idea

I don't want my tax dollars being spent on this fucker...but he wants to become a martyr to his terrorist friends.

He's gonna get shanked. Unless he is in isolaiton all his life, which will cause him to commit suicide anway... he's gonna get killed...

And I'll be happy to throw the guy a parade to whomever shanks him.

if this guy commits suicide, would he still be seen as a martyr? or is that seen as weak?

If he doesnt kill any Jews or other innocent people, its not being a martyr

He's going to a super max prision in colorado where jail cells are x number of feet under ground and everyone is isolated. the only people he'll see are guards. 23 out of 24 hours a day, he'll sit in a cell. the remaining hour will be in a private room where he can work out. If you want some more details, hit up wikipedia for "ADMAX". This is where the worst of the worst go, including the shoe bomber.

edit: sorry, no shanking going on here.

Tricky... And what if he converted and became a Jew, and then killed himself??

The issue is moot. he should have never been tried in a civil court. he should have recieved a non-judicial military review, and subsequent imprisonment, as he is a unarmed combatant of a hostile enemy force. I would rather see him dead, but end of story, this trial is a joke, and the sentence is a mockery of our system of democracy, that costs another 1,000,000 dollars a year. He will get better in our jail system than he ever deserved.

His crime is conspiracy, and it was perpetuated against the United States of America, not the survivors of the victims of the tragedies of the day. By Geneva conventions (whihc are far too idealistic, imho), we can not execute him.

I honestly feel like the govt. no longer knows how to stand up to the people, and explain the way things are supposed to go. "Sorry people, this is a military matter. You have no U.S. Constitutional rights at all, detainee, nor course of legal action in the civil courts. You are a PRISONER OF WAR."

that a civilian jury stands in judgement of a paramilitary operative with terroristic ambitions found embedded in American populations is atrocious...

now, in time, he can petition to serve his sentence for a *nonviolent* crime of association in France, and perhaps seek absolution for his crimes.

raum...

you have to realize that there is an important reason why the guy was given life. I'm sure others here express or has expressed the same thing, but I did not bother to look. Life is the best thing for this guy and if you look up the ADMAX prison hes going to spend his life in, you'll know its a good place for the guy. If we would have killed him off it would have made him more of a hero than he already is. So sit down and calm it a bit man.

i realize two things easily:

they have enough jihadi shahid that this guy is not going to leave them wondering who to glorify. and they are more likely to STILL use examples of shahada that actually successfully completed their mission like the jihadi shahid in the planes that struck the WTC, OR more likely historical people who predate the current environment of conflict, local people that would not so well be known thus have a greater sense of intimacy, or there is also the possibility they spin this that THE ATTACKS ARE A JEWISH PLOT, thus the trial is a joke anyways.

There is already exposure of life imprisonment for would be jihadi shahid, and cruel treatment of them. this is nothing new, and cruel imprisonment is more likely to enrage than swift certain death, which speaks to the traditional sense of Islamic justice. but those who hate, hate.

for me, this is financial. i know far more people who deserve security of shelter and meals for life than criminals who will NEVER be free. it speaks to MY sense of justice that solitary indefinite imprisonment is less humane than swift death for those who have no capacity for fulfilment in life, and far less efficient.

and I was charged when I worte that, I went and saw United 93, and saw a protrayal of someone i somewhat knew. It solidified in a temporary instinct that comes from being a Triple Tiger in the Chinese Astrology (Wood, Fire, Water).

and what enrages me is that he stood civil trial for international conspiracy to commit terror. how the hell does that make sense? he has no peers in this country,.. he got far more attention than he deserves.

he should have been held at Tribunal, and summarily executed the minute material evidence of his intent was known.

Well...think about this....

We want this scum to suffer. To be miserable. To be unhappy. And he WANTED the death penalty. He wanted to be a martyr.

Now, he's requsted a new trial because he has faith in the justice system. Whatever. He wants a new trial because the idea of spending 23 hours a day by yourself, knowing that the moment anyone but a guard sees you, you are a goner, is scary.

Its not death scary. Its insanity scary. We all know people that can't go 4 hours without human contact. Try going 23 hours a day, for 50 years!

I do hate that my tax money is being spent on this maggot. But he is less of an inspiration to other terrorists who could have looked up to his martyrdom...

I don't care how much or how little he suffers.

I am not invested in making him miserable.

Making people miserable is not what our penal system is supposed to be about. It is about ensuring order in municipality, and nationwide.

It is supposed to be about rehabilitation and isolation, and if ewarranted execution.

so, we didn't kill him, instead we torture him with isolation and restriction to "die with a whimper"

and this is better?

-------

but the issue is really:

How many people who have gotten death sentences who were much better candidates for life than this incompetent dullard.

I wrote to save Tookie. it did nothing and the man who stopped New Jersey gangwars who had NO CREDIBLE evidence for the crimes he committed was put to death, while nominated for a Nobel prize. he suffered so bad because the method of execution was not calibrated for him.

I do not favour the death penalty for everyone.

But this trial was not a case of civil legal violation.

This was an enemy combatant on trial in the civil court.

That speaks against every distinguishment of military and civilian, which is what we are trying to establish with the war on terror, and the Laws of War in general. Not treating civilians as military targets means you also can not try foreign militants as civilians. That's a gross form of extremism. He can not be tried in our civil courts without the rights of someone standing accused in our courts. That is far more inhumane than a summary execution for conspiracy by tribunal in time of war.

There is an International Court for a reason. You try him there, or you execute him, summarily for conspiracy to commit terror.

All i see now is people saying "awww yeah, NOW he gets punished. serves him right!"

I don't want him punished. "I want him gone so we can worry about things that are important. Futhermore, make his passing a deterrent."

John Pershing and Alexander Roberts are the only people to quell decades of islamic agression. and they did so by burying the dead atttackers with pigs and soaking their bullets in it. these are the only successful methods on record. and they worked until they were denounced.

none other works.

they don't fear death. they fear hell.

so, give em hell if hell they warrant.
---------

Could not have said it better. Even before the sentencing was official I wanted life. The judicial system to me is about crime, punishment, and justice. Death is not a punishment for this man. Neither he nor any of his colleagues fear death. They embrace it. All executing him does is label him a martyr, a terrorist icon, and add fuel to the terrorist fire. Spending the rest of his life in isolation, cut off from religion (after a few weeks he won't even know which way Mecca is), human contact, everything. That's the best punishment you could give him...and I'll gladly give my tax money for it..I gotta pay it anyway, might as well put it to decent use.

I think non of them are going to become martyr (shahid) either they are executed or not, thats for sure, as far as my view goes. However, many people have their view & they are entitled to it.

I am not scholar but as far as I know. To becom a martyr u have to fight for the right cause, first off all. In doing so u should not hurt any (yes i mean ANY) men, women, children, aged people, live-stock, other animals, crops, forrests, anything natural. Only people u can engage are armed opposition who are also engaging.

^^^ I believe in this, & as far as Jihad goes. There are 2 kind described, 1- spiritually & 2- materially. Spiritually, which involve ur self only is far greater then material one. Example: Quit smoking can also qualify as spiritual jihad.

Ask Zacarias Moussaoui & his likes about this ^^ view, he/they will tell u its not true & dat who ever believe in this has weak believe in Islam.

LOL!

The problem with what you are saying is many of these terrorists do believe that the people of the western world, specifically the USA ARE the enemy.

They are fighting their cause. Our World Trade Center, our people, our children. The Jews in Israel, etc.. we're all the enemy. So to die for their cause is making them a martyr in their eyes

my point is simple,.. it is abusurdity to think they will suffer a shortage of "martyrs" without the suumary of excution for this incompentent dirt bag.


Worse yet, by keeping him alive, he is a symbol of the percieved restriction of the west over the islamic world, and has already begun to exploited as such.

look at the "see what they want to do to iraqis" sentiment... lock them down, oppress them, FOR LIFE.

Two words,

Terrorists are A** H****

Dont believe wat they say, they will even tell u dat angel told them to dat or this. They are totally (i dont know the word in English).

I dont want to sound offensive to people here but, u know wat u should do. Take him to a open place, tell people wat he did, warn does like him that there fate will be da same, & then finish him off.

Yes, that is logical. Fight violence with more violence. I like the picture, although it is illogical. By, "finishing them off" we are no better.

We should learn why there are problems with society and focus on educating the future generations on how to not create these groups. Society as a whole in many ways created all of this and now we are paying dues.

Karma I suppose.

i also believe that fighting fire with fire is kinda redundent. we would become just like them. except that we are not fighting because our religion tells us that we should put down the infidels. that the more infidels we take with us to death the better place you get in heaven.
we are fighting to defend ourselves and the other that are labled as infidels.

@raum ....HELLS YAH.... i agree with you. what are we doing trying these people in civil court. sadam is also being tried in civil court. WTF. they are not members of the United States. they are Prisoners of War. we should not be allowing them the same rights as american citizans.

(head shake)

(shakes head in disgust)

Oh so this topic is about a day without Bush?

of course it is, because you know the middle east was just group hugs, unicorns, and rainbows before Bush, right?

Yeah, it was a blissful place without the old fucker.

Err... I won't even comment.

ahhhhh...so short sighted are we?

Spend some time in isolation, carceration and then get back to me. I would rather have death rather than incarceration. Sitting in a small cell in order to analyize your wrong doings takes its hold. If one were to die, as if I were to die in the past, I would have considered that a blessing.

You still don't understand now do you? Well, spend time incarcerated and you will begin to realize what I mean. Death is a jewel in the palm of the so called vindicator, imprisonment is more of a punishment indeed.

I have more experience being incarcerated than most any one else on this forum.

and certainly more time, having been confined to solitary in a brig, with fifteen minute meals consisting of water and bread. Three seperate occasions, one was a super bowl weekend. And I would do it again for my convictions.

I instead broke bread with my ancestors, and maintained a regimine of Omei Be Gua Zhang. I also devised poetry and encapsulated my thoughts in it.

I also have spent more than 210 consecutive days in a complete restriction with only "trustee" type privelidges, only with assigned work duties while the govt tried to find my service records and see if I in fact was who and what I said I was.

I would add this was for something I believed in, namely instituting a EPA compliant hazardous material inventory system, whether they liked it or not.

but, ALSO, I LOVE SOLITUDE. No threat could keep me from my desired end.

I meditate everyday, and am totally comfortable being by myself, immersed in the Tao. I have went for weeks without speaking, just to see if I had anything worth saying, and have been invited to join one of the most isolated monastaries in the Five Bushels Sect of Wu Chia Taoism.

you picked the wrong person to try and intimidate with silence and solitude, for I am well versed in those Arts.

no prison can contain he who has discovered his infinite nature.

raum... you certainly demonstrate your point, using yourself as an example. And I am not doubting you in any way.

But not everyone, in fact, probably almost one, has had these experiences and can also survive these things as you have or could.

Most people in the world could not do solitary. Even loners tend to want human contact at some point.

Death to this man would have made him a matyr in his eyes, and the eyes of his supporters. Whether or not he is one would be a mute point.

Personally, being that I, unlike this scumbag, do fear death and all of its aspects, would give anything to not have death. Life sentence, etc.

man1ken: respect raum. he deserves it. there are political things which raum and me do not agree on - and I still don't understand why he does not (haha!), BUT the guy does NOT speak words in vain. you read, you absorb, you don't challenge: you ask instead. his reply will learn you more than your denial. damn - such praise from me.

and that IS indeed funny, but believe you me that he has wisdom few possess.

btw: my first answer to raum's initial posts here: http://board.iexbeta.com/index.php?showtop...9407&st=15#

man1ken: I respect you a lot as well and your friend Adamj. Please give some respect to him from me. how's he doing?

Man3k1n, Brains et. al.

I didn't feel insulted by his comments to me,.. and in general, he doesn't bother me at all, and has made some good points. It just seemed like he was saying "don't underestimate the anguish of solitary incarceration." and stated he would prefer death.

So I illustrated I did not underestimate it, as I have experienced it. and he is right death is the preferred treatment. I also have said I don't care what bothers him most, or what punishment is more uncomfortable.

But to be honest, I honestly don't care what his experience is. I am looking at the points that:

0. He is an enemy combatant, in a war, and was taken to civil court, like a US citizen.

1. incarceration in SUPERMAX is expensive. I have better things to give my money toward.

2. he is still alive on US soil. This man should NEVER have that privelidge for the rest of his life.

3. he pledged commitment to the ideals of the self-determined foes of the U.S.

4. the division of the American people over what happens to him reveals even more discontent with the way the administration is handling this.

5. He is not a US citizen, and he is recieving the treatment of a US citizen.

6. No box you put him in will be small enough, or tight enough, or lonely enough unless it is a coffin.

He is a visitor to this country that implicated himself in the tragedies that occured on 9-11-2001. He betrayed us all, and glorified it on international TV. He has, in my eyes, the rights of a piece of gum on the bottom of my shoe. He had the right to be scraped, as quickly, as completely, as efficiently as possible. So we can focus on other things, like how to keep

You want to give him solitary confinement, make it in an airtight box the size of a coffin at the bottom of the great pacific rift.
--------------

As for him being a martyr, most of the insurgents in the world have enough of those to look up to as it is.
it's not like since Zacarias didn't die, they're like, "awww, man! no we don't have any martyrs. Well, guess we better pack up and go home."

Right now, Lebanon is their martyr. and rightfully so.

no you didn't and I know you won't.

man1ken could be insulted by your comments and that also is not the right road for him to thread. that's all I was saying.