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Microshit
QUOTE
Israeli planes hit Gaza bridges
Israel's military has attacked three bridges in Gaza amid heightened tension over the capture of an Israeli soldier.
The Israeli military confirmed that the first strike was aimed at stopping Palestinian militants moving Cpl Gilad Shalit, who was abducted on Sunday.

Israel has warned of large-scale military action and tanks have been gathering on the border with Gaza.

Rival Palestinian factions Hamas and Fatah earlier agreed a document outlining a common political platform.

As part of the agreement, Hamas said it would accept a Palestinian state on the West Bank and Gaza - while maintaining its refusal to recognise the legitimacy of Israel.

Under the deal, the Hamas government also authorises the Fatah leader and President of the Palestinian Authority, Mahmoud Abbas, to conduct negotiations with Israel.

An aide to Mr Abbas, Saeb Erekat, told the BBC the aim of the agreement was to present a united front to Israel in negotiations.

Hamas and Fatah "have to be brought together in order... to be able to sit down with the Israelis and discuss the future of the Palestinians", he said.

The BBC's Middle East editor, Jeremy Bowen, says there is little in the document to hint at a longer-term peace deal with Israel.

There is no peace process on the ground, he says, and the dynamic of violence in the area tends to overtake efforts at peace.

Militants on alert

Cpl Shalit was seized when Palestinian militants burrowed under the border and attacked an Israeli army position, killing two soldiers.


Israel has rejected the militants' demands for Palestinian women and children held in Israeli jails to be freed in exchange for information about the soldier.

The BBC's correspondent in Gaza, Alan Johnston, says it is unclear if the Israeli air raids are precursors to a large-scale ground assault.

But, he says, militants in Gaza are on high alert, preparing ambushes and hideouts to be used in the event of an Israeli invasion.



I can't belive this, attck three bridges, because one soldier is kidnapped. noexpression.gif No wonder there are thousands of suicide bombers in Palestine ermm.gif

Tell me your thoughts.
paulmer2003
Gotta agree with yah there. Fucking Israel needs to leave palestine alone. And we need to stop kissing Israels ass - no wonder all of the terrorists hate us.
K2
QUOTE(Microshit @ Jun 28 2006, 00:31) *
I can't belive this, attck three bridges, because one soldier is kidnapped. noexpression.gif No wonder there are thousands of suicide bombers in Palestine ermm.gif
The thing is this: Palestinians did kidnap that soldier... So Israel is entitled to a reaction...

And why, if you have the military power, wouldn't you "use" that moment and make the most of it? I have also read that they have bombed the most important electrical power plant in Gaza and a main water pipe.

It reminds me of when they were attacking Arafat in Ramallah, and "happened" to destroy the ministery of education in the process (all the computers, all the files with the grades of the kids, all the material to give lessons including books). Preventing the education of the enemy is a smart move...

War is a very very ugly thing microshit! Don't try to find any reason in it...

Besides: those Palestinians who kidnapped that soldier knew perfectly well how Israel would respond. In that respect it's all part of the "game" both parties are playing: Or do you really think it was a coincidence that this kidnapping happened on the precise moment when hamas and fatah where discussing an agreement that would lead to peace negotiations with Israel?? shifty.gif
Microshit
I know war is ugly, but there is a difference between a 5 year war (Iraq) and a 20+ year war. What Israel is doing is barbaric, and way over the top. The west defines "terrorist" by either : Muslim or suicide bomber. Israel are the terrorists, they have the bullets, planes, ships, NUKES. But Palestinians? stones and their own life. An Israel soldier will kill a palestinian by just shooting a bullet, how can a palestinian kill an Israelite? suicide. Thats whats avaliable for them, and nothing more.
Listen people, we live in an age where these things can be prevented. We have enough peaceful countries who can help fix this, but no countries are making any effort, especially the Arab countries *with the exception of Egypt, who is actually making tremendous effort*
The power is in the wrong hands, USA does not deserve all this power, and US power = more Israel power . They surely didnt earn it, but they forced it.
Israel has not once been charged with war crimes, and the government actually LIES to the entire world, they're not even men because they cant handle the responsobility. Palestine is going through poverty, but still they manage to work for 3 months without pay. That is commitment, and if this is not worth peace, then I dont know what it is..

Fucking hell, look at this: noexpression.gif
QUOTE
Israeli soldiers push into Gaza

Tanks enter Gaza
Israeli forces have taken up position in southern Gaza after an overnight incursion aimed at freeing a soldier captured by Palestinian militants.
They reached the disused international airport apparently without meeting resistance, hours after delivering air attacks on bridges and a power station.

It is the first major incursion since Israel withdrew from Gaza last year.

Militants say the soldier is being kept where Israel cannot reach him, and they have set conditions for his release.

It is unclear how many troops are being used in the operation to free Cpl Gilad Shalit, launched from the Kerem Shalom crossing near southern Gaza.

But Israeli army officials told the BBC the operation would remain "limited and surgical" and had one objective alone - to bring Cpl Shalit home safely.


The goal is not to search [for Cpl Shalit], the goal is to cause them to send Gilad home
Binyamin Ben-Eliezer
Israeli cabinet minister


Cpl Shalit was taken prisoner in a raid claimed by three different organisations - including the armed wing of governing party Hamas - after a raid on an Israeli guard post near Gaza on Sunday.

Israel last year pulled soldiers and thousands of settlers out of Gaza, which it had first occupied after the 1967 war.

On Tuesday, Hamas and its main factional rival, Fatah, agreed a document outlining a common political platform for negotiations with Israel, but the move appears to have been overtaken by events on the ground.

In another development, militants in the West Bank said they had abducted a Jewish settler and would kill him if Israeli continued its operations in Gaza.

'Slowed down'

Israeli forces, under cover of shelling and backed by helicopter gunships, took up positions on farmland outside the disused airport about one kilometre inside the Gaza border.


"We want to bring our soldier home, that is our only goal," said one Israeli cabinet minister, Binyamin Ben-Eliezer.

Mr Ben-Eliezer, a former defense minister, told Israeli radio the aim was not to search for the soldier but to pressurise his captors into releasing him:

"The goal is not to search [for Cpl Shalit], the goal is to cause them to send Gilad home... They have to understand we won't just sit quietly."

Palestinian families living in the path of the Israeli incursion have been fleeing their homes to find refuge in the nearby town of Rafah.

While the Israelis reported no resistance, Palestinian militants have been erecting barricades and preparing hideouts and ambush positions.

Abu Qusay, a spokesman for the Fatah-affiliated group al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades, said that mines left by militants had slowed down the Israeli advance.

"So far the Zionist enemy has advanced only a short distance, thanks to the explosive charges planted on its way," he told the al-Jazeera television channel.

The US has been calling on Israel to give diplomacy more time and both Egypt and France are said to have been involved in talks to free Cpl Shalit.

Militant demands

Before the incursion, Israeli jets attacked three bridges and a power plant in the Gaza Strip.





Cpl Shalit was captured when Palestinian militants tunnelled under the Gaza border and attacked an Israeli army position at Kerem Shalom, killing two soldiers.

Israel has rejected militant demands for Palestinian women and children held in Israeli jails to be freed in exchange for information about the soldier.

Political leaders of Hamas, the governing Palestinian party, have denied they know of Cpl Shalit's whereabouts and have urged his captors not to mistreat him.

As part of its agreement with Fatah, Hamas said it would accept a Palestinian state on the West Bank and Gaza - while maintaining its refusal to recognise the legitimacy of Israel.

The Hamas government also authorised the Fatah leader and president of the Palestinian Authority, Mahmoud Abbas, to conduct negotiations with Israel.

A Fatah official said the aim of the deal was to present a united front in talks.

BBC Middle East analyst Roger Hardy says the document - first drawn up by Palestinian prisoners in Israel - is not designed as an olive branch to Israel, but to end serious factional strife between Hamas, the Islamist party which won elections in January, and Fatah, the nationalist party it defeated.
IPB Image


Come fucking on, they are doing all this for a teenaged soldier? Besides, once the millants hear about this invasion they will cut his throat within seconds.
bd55
I agree with K2. The people who kindapped the soldier knew perfectly well how Israel would react. They have absolutely no intentions of exchanging prisoners. That's just the cover and they want a reason for bloodshed. The possibility of Israel withdrawing and giving way to a stable Palestine is not in their interests. If they really wanted it they would have responded positively and encouraged Israel to further withdraw from other places. But of course that's not an option for criminals.

It is important to point out that I do not believe Israel is the victim here, but these criminals are making everything to provoke the bully and very much on purpose. They do not want peace and will do everything so that it will never arrive.
Microshit
Israel is really playing with fire here. Now they are sending jets to fly over Syrian President Bashar Assad home, and this gives Syria every right to shoot them down right?

Well I fucking hope President Bashar fires back, Israel really crossed the line, literally.
EDIT:
There you have it:
"Air defenses fired on Israeli warplanes that entered Syrian airspace early Wednesday and forced them to flee"
virtualraider
QUOTE
I can't belive this, attck three bridges, because one soldier is kidnapped. No wonder there are thousands of suicide bombers in Palestine


Why can't you believe this? where you born yesterday? I fully expected this, as soon as I heard that this had happened, my thought was "The shit just hit the fan"

QUOTE(Microshit @ Jun 28 2006, 01:33) *

The west defines "terrorist" by either : Muslim or suicide bomber.


Think before you speak, I am from the west, you have just insulted me my family and everyone else in the who is Muslim in the western world.

Hasin
Microshit is also muslim, so am i, and i know for certain he is not insulting anyones family or any muslims. He's just pointing out the stereotyping 95% of the people make of muslims as terrorist. On the outside they act like they are multicultural, ask them the questions in priavate, they will tell you they believe most muslims are capable of blowing up the twin towers and such and such. harsh, but its true. no one admits it openly cause it will cause people to get mad and make you look like a racist fuck, but like i said, 95% will stereotype all muslims.
zxybgsyxz
QUOTE(Microshit @ Jun 28 2006, 04:33) *

The west defines "terrorist" by either : Muslim or suicide bomber.



QUOTE(Hasin @ Jun 29 2006, 20:16) *

Microshit is also muslim, so am i, and i know for certain he is not insulting anyones family or any muslims. He's just pointing out the stereotyping 95% of the people make of muslims as terrorist. On the outside they act like they are multicultural, ask them the questions in priavate, they will tell you they believe most muslims are capable of blowing up the twin towers and such and such. harsh, but its true. no one admits it openly cause it will cause people to get mad and make you look like a racist fuck, but like i said, 95% will stereotype all muslims.


Bullshit, both of you. 95% is a GROSS exaggeration. Try more like 25% as a more logical, but still probably incorrect number. That 25% is still quite a bit, but it sure as hell isn't 95%. And I know in my part of the US, it's generally the same way from what I've observed. I know many, many, many more people who are friends with Muslim than people who are stereotypical. What you're doing is exaggerating the stereotype that offends you with a stereotype that you can comfortably say because it doesn't apply to you. Shame on you two. I have nothing against the two of you; however, it's bullshit that you come and say a stereotype offends you, in the same paragraph use a stereotype to blow yours out of proportion, and make it a bigger deal than it needs to be. Just say you're offended. Don't say you're offended and then fight back with something that will offend someone else.

Fuck, you people sometimes make me wonder.
virtualraider
QUOTE
Reply to your PM


Microshit, I am not Muslim, but my friends Arif and Najla where over for dinner, I was showing them the iexbeta site when I noticed your post, as I had not seen you post for a while, I checked it out, Arif commented that you must live in the Middle East because it is the Middle Eastern Media that stereos types Westerners as stereo typing Muslims as Terrorists.

What I do think, is you do lump all Westerners together as one stereo typical group, and you seem to believe we all think alike, going through your previous posts you demonstrate this type of thinking, so your PM that says it was a slip of the tongue is not believable.

The problem is people like you continuing to perpetuate these stereo types against your own people, you yourself do more harm to your own people by continuing to brand your self in this manner.

I have to agree with zxybgsyxz

QUOTE
Shame on you two.


Hasin
well i dont live in middle east and ive been brought up with the image of the western world stereo typing muslims as terrorists and im gonna stand by my 95%. and if anyone is wondering, im in Australia which is like a mini USA cause our PM is sucking Bush's dick so yeah.

im gonna stop posting on this thread as all threads like this turn out the same
raum
see, where I work and live, which is like 10 minutes from where the first draft of the Declaration of Independence was written, we don't have a problem with any of this.

we are pretty much well integrated melting pot here.

the 11 Islamic centers or mosques don't even get molested. there are at least three different types, and some of them don't associate. We don't really get it.

neither does the 2 Jewish centers, which both have larger congregations, even the total number are about equal.

and if anyone is wondering; the 28 Christian churches also includes Korean, Chinese, Spanish, and Pennasylvania Dutch.

and wre don't hate anyone. haven't two murders in ten years.

and 1 in 14 people has at least two firearms.

feel the love, feel the steel

Microshit
QUOTE

Gaza sees bloodiest day of raids
Twenty-two Palestinians and an Israeli have reportedly been killed in the bloodiest day of violence since Israel pushed into the Gaza Strip.
Many of those killed in the air strikes and heavy fighting are militants but there are also civilian victims.

Israel's operations, the biggest since it withdrew from Gaza last summer, began largely in the south in a bid to free a soldier captured by militants.

But troops moved deeper into the north after rocket attacks on a city.

Israeli officials deny any plans to reoccupy Gaza.

The interior minister in the Hamas-led Palestinian government, Said Siyam, has called on the security forces to fight Israeli troops.

But correspondents say the minister has limited influence with the security forces, who are mostly loyal to Hamas's rival movement, Fatah.

Veteran Palestinian negotiator Saeb Erekat said Israel's operations were undermining diplomatic efforts to free the soldier, Cpl Gilad Shalit.

Urban fighting

Palestinian medical sources said 22 Palestinians had been killed and dozens injured in Gaza in the last 24 hours.


Militants armed with automatic rifles and rocket-propelled grenades have been fighting Israeli soldiers backed by tanks and helicopter gunships in street battles.

The fighting has focused on the towns of Beit Lahiya, Abassan and Khan Younis as Israeli tanks approach their outskirts.

An Israeli soldier was shot dead near Beit Lahiya, the army confirmed, marking the first military death of the offensive.

The army is trying to drive back Palestinian militants who fire crudely made rockets into towns in Israel just beyond Gaza's northern border, the BBC's Bethany Bell reports.

While the Israeli army says it is keen to avoid civilian casualties, Thursday's death highlights the dangers of fighting in urban areas, our correspondent adds.





In other developments:


Israel closed the main goods crossing point with Gaza following what it said were alerts received about a planned attack

Israeli police reportedly detained five senior members of Hamas in Jerusalem - police say they had been helping Hamas MPs conduct party activity in the city

The UN human rights watchdog deplored Israel's campaign in Gaza as a breach of international law in an emergency resolution passed in Geneva.
'Buffer zone'

Hamas's military wing has fired two Qassam rockets at Ashkelon in the last 48 hours, the first time Palestinian militants have hit a major Israeli city with their crudely made rockets.


Why do thousands of Palestinians have to suffer death, destruction, lack of water, and electricity for the fate of ONE Israeli soldier?
Omar, Washington DC


The rockets did not cause serious damage or injury.

Ashkelon - more than 10km (seven miles) north of Gaza - was thought to be out of range of Palestinian rockets.

Israeli minister Binyamin Ben-Eliezer has insisted there is no wish to stay in Gaza.

For their part, groups like Hamas often say that their attacks are a response to Israeli military action - not just attacks on militants in Gaza, but raids, arrests and killings over in the occupied West Bank as well.

Every night since the militants captured Cpl Gilad Shalit, the Israeli air force has struck at sites in Gaza, including bridges and a power station.

Little is known about the fate of Cpl Shalit, captured in a cross-border raid by a joint militant force including fighters from Hamas, but Israeli officials believe he is still alive.


I am sick to my stomach. Children are fucking geting killed. Someone has to do something, NOW.
look at this:
IPB Image
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randy1234
hamas has to give back the soldier , then israel will have no excuse.
raum
what about the fact that the tunnel dug to kill two soldiers and kidnap one had to have been started right after Israel pulled out of the Gaza, and would have required heavy machinery, supplies, and many workers.

this took a long time to pull off and that kind of work did not go unnoticed in Palestine.

And to take a hostage for negotiations is a sure way to gain the ire of the entire country of Israel, and the wrath of its might. Look what Rueben and Simon did when their sister was taken, and raped. They went in and killed every person in the walls of the city who took her. You do NOT do that, and you can take it to the Bible AND the history books.

I worried this may be the case, and it was seen as biased. I wondered if Palestine was ready to understand the needed responsiblity of a state. It is painfully evident they were not.

Whatever is left of their government should capture the kidnappers, and deliver them and their hostage to Israel.

Because after the killing of the two other soldiers, Israel's draft situation demands they save "Private Ryan" as a priority in maintaining their own organizational firmness.

Israel has one of the most combat capable citizenries, because of that draft. And to see one of their own used asa chip in a bargain is the worst offense. They will not EVER conceed to negotiate the return of a hostage, or a prisoner of war. Then, the solution to manipulating Israel becomes to take its people prisoners... and they can not ever afford that to become a viable option for their aggressors.
Microshit
I swear, one day, Israel will suffer for what they are doing now.
K2
QUOTE(Microshit @ Jul 7 2006, 10:54) *
I swear, one day, Israel will suffer for what they are doing now.
You know, man, that is the typical reaction in the Arab world... And that is usually it... Palestinians would be millionaires if they would receive a dollar everytime somebody says that. And in the meantime it's them who are doing all the suffering.

What Arab nations should do, instead of all this blah, blah blah blah, about zionists that will once face consequences, and Islam will be victorious over the Jews, and there is no place for Israel in this part of the world,..., is to finally UNITE and try to fucking HELP to end this conflict in a peaceful way.

Arab nations tried to assist Palestinians 2 times, trough a war. 2 times they got their asses kicked, bigtime... Well then, since that approach didn't work, maybe it's time to try another alternative called negotiations?

But no, Arab regimes LOVE it that they can blame everything on the big Jewish conspiracy: oil @ 75 USD per barrel: zionist scheme supported by the US! The Danish cartoons: Western plot suported by Israel against Islam, the fact that the Middle-East has poverty figures going through the roof (although the West pays billions a day to the region for our much beloved oil) and for the lack of democratic right in most regimes: The great Western zionist conspiracy that holds developments in the Arabic world back...

It's only in the Arab world (not even in Palestinia itself) that the "right of return" for all refugees is maintained, simply because they know damn well that will never ever happen (how can you move what is estimated over 4 million people to a region that is an economical disaster? shifty.gif And the right to return is the reason Arafat finally didn't agree with the Camp David deal in 2000, the closest we ever got to peace... Only because he knew he couldn't sell that to the Arab neighbours...

bleh... I HATE it that Palestinians have to suffer on the back of some sort of (inter)national agenda. These people want peace, they want to build up their economy, they don't want to be the freaking symbol of Islam fighting zionism!

Microshit
Arab nations know that force will not help, but it seems that it is the only way Israel learns. Let me give you a brief history on the peace progress only ONE Arab country did (Egypt). On October 22, 2000, Egyptian president Hosny Mubarak demanded UN investigation in Israel crimes in Palestine (Communique of the Extraordinary Arab League Summit). 4 days before this Egypt hosted a peace conference with Ehud Barak (Israel's PM). Just last year we had the Sharm El Sheikh Summit, where Sharon, Pres. Mahmoud Abbas, Pres. Hosny Mubarak, King Abdallah (Jordan) and a major Palestinian authority met. Now, dont tell me Arab countries are not making efforts. I dont see Israel even remotely doing any efforts. Go read some articles on BBC News, compare the Israelite and Palestinian point of views. Every single Palestinian interviewed, from teenager to grandfather, just wants the fighting to end, and to be "treated like humans". Israelite point of view? Go further into Gaza and fight until they get the teenaged soldier back. Israel needs the fixing, not the Arab countries. K2, diseased dogs are more respected than the Palestinians by Israelites. And every single Jewish conspiracy you just said I have NEVER heard of. When the Danish cartoons came out, Israel was not one of the countries mentioned to blame and boycott. The $75 USD oil? I just want to tell you something about oil here in the middle east: its a fixed price, whatever the WESTERN oil prices go up or down, we are totally unaffected, 1 liter of gasoline costs 1 LE, that is less than 1 cent (USD) !! and it has been like this for over 50 years. IN Saudi? oil costs less than water.

I said what had to be said, and you have to understand that Israel's actions will lead the world into another World War.

Again, my opinon (or should I say a soon to be fact?) remains unchanged: one day, Israel will suffer for what they are doing now.

I would really like to hear your point of view towards all this.
dkreifus
I've tried to stay out of this..but I must respond...

Israel is not attempting to reclaim Gaza or do anything more than to get back a kidnapped soldier.

Although I don't like the latest amount of innocent victims in the israeli militant strikes, i do understand why Israel is doing it.

Israel has only wanted peace. But its tough to have peace when you have groups of terrorists firing rockets and mortars into your yard.

Now... should Israel just sit there while these rockets are fired? Even though they don't always hit someone, they are still being fired with the intent to kill.

Israel has asked that they be recongized as a state by the Palestinian people, and that the terrorists be stopped, curbed, or at least the attempt to stop it has been made.

Heck, all Hamas had to do was lie and pretend to acknowledge Israel. They would have had all their support and such back months ago.

The militants kidnapped the soldier because they KNEW that Israel would retaliate. They could then start claiming that the Zionists are harming them.

The 'Zionists' weren't invading the Gaza until one of their own was kidnapped.

And now... against their normal negotiation policy, Israel is willing to negotiate for the freedom of their soldier. They're making the effort. Hamas says they'll stop firing rockets.

Personally, I don't think asking one nation to curtail their terrorists is an unreasonable request for peace.

I don't believe all Arab countires want Israel destoryed. More often than not, they want peace probably. But you have morons like the president of Iran, and Hamas leading a screaming fit, brainwashing everyone, so that peace will be impossible.

Hamas wants to make itself a victim so they can draw sympathy from the world. (Hence, kidnapping a soldier to force an invasion)
Microshit
I'm sorry, but I dont agree one bit. Israel does NOT want peace, this is too obvious. You want me to believe they are killing hundreds and injuring hundreds more, runing current and future generations without any sort of sustainability JUST FOR ONE TEENAGED SOLDIER. noexpression.gif Dont you think that is over the top? God knows whats happening to the Palestinians in Israelite jails. You are not looking at the big picture, the rockets fired were in retaliation of the tens of tanks that entered Gaza! Do you "want them to just sit there?" Even the Israel citizens' opinions are harsh and hasty and are everything BUT wanting peace. Right now as I type the EU are warning Israel. You want to tell me, that the entire world including EU, ME, Asia, everyone has the wrong opinion of Israel? That Israel, is a peace-craving country, as oposed to being a war based country?

If you give Israel, a one time shot, where they can be "legal" and take Palestine, THEY WILL TAKE IT. This kidnapped soldier is their key. You want me to beilve that this soldier was vital for Israel? That this teenages soldier was of any value to the point that they forget all morals and kill tens of Palestines.

What I want to know is how this soldier is of more human value than the 40 people that were killed today. I want to know how this single soldier is worth more than hundreds of houses that were destroyed and how he is worth more than the future generation's quality of life.

He is nothing, they are something.

Israel seriously needs to learn a lesson, Force or not, they have to learn before another country goes barbaric on them!
raum
Go on, keep threatening Israel, saying they will pay. Meanwhile Palestine IS paying for the actions of those killers who kidnapped a soldier.

QUOTE
This kidnapped soldier is their key.


perhaps,.. now, remind me, again. Who's kidnapped that soldier again?

thought so.

another thing. It absolutely disgusts me how you keep saying "only one" soldier. They came into Israel, killed two and took another. and they did so on a stand down. and despite that, your lack of understanding of duty and

There is not going to ever be a cease fire when any letting off by Israel results in treachery. Everytime Israel gets a glimmer of hope of recognition from whoever is in so-called "authority" in the conflict zones, the person is really just a puppet of some group that also has its militant wing that takes the opportunity to strike. happened before, will happen again until they change or die out.
Microshit
Fucking hell, are you out of your mind? You want to tell me this is all worth it? If you think its worth all the lives that have gone, and all the wreckage that has been caused, then you seriously need counseling.

How would you like it if a crazy American kidnapped a soldier from another country, and YOUR family was shot dead. Tell me, I really want to know.
raum
I never said it was all worth it. But after seeing this continue for as long as it has, I have come to expect it from the area.

I said that Palestine is suffering because of the killing of Israeli soldiers and the capture of one in Israel. Those kidnappers are to blame. I can tell you that.

And after seeing what HAMAS used as a platform to get elected, I am not suprised they are failing and Palestine is suffering as a result of their strategy. But they don't care. They hate Israel more than they love Palestine.

Your question makes no sense. See, OUR OWN GOVT. WOULD ENFORCE THE LAW AND RETRIEVE THE SOLDIER. And my family would just get out of the way and let that govt. do its job.

I do not delight in that the world is full of people who kill others to achieve their own ends. I accept it, though, and am willing to defend myself and my loved ones.

Micro, how do you feel about the Israelies who have been killed, or had their lives destroyed?

I mourn for both sides, and wish Palestine would police it own people and stop those attacking Israel. Until then Israel is defending itself from Anarchy. and the best way is with a long range attack.

If Israel laid down its arms, Palestine would continue to attack, and Israeli groups would launch their own attacks.

Better Israel stay in control of the warriors it is has trained.
randy1234
i agree ,raum.
Madrose
I just cannot read all this an stay away.
let's but some facts here, this soldier who was kidnapped was actually on duty killing other Palestinians along with his dead soldiers, and they were in a battle. those soldiers are from the same army whom they killed the entire family of that girl on the beach while on a picnic, what did the world do at that time?????!!! i want somebody to give a real action done or UN resolution or anything that make sense against that crime.
and there is allot of examples out there for the same.

please do understand that the Jews doesn't want to stop the war, they simple want to kill and destroy a whole nation.

please read UN resolutions first, Israel is officially an occupation force and they are staying on a country that is not theirs. this is admitted by the UN and if you don't believe that please do some Google on their resolutions.

Arafat..... he is simple an Israeli spy and all what he did was taking the right of the Palestinians one by one and finally he sold it all and took $$$$$$$$$$$$$ as the price in his pocket which his wife took after.

Arab leaders, all are traitors for the cause and for their nations without any exception. do some googling and you will know what i am talking about. the Arab citizens are living without any right in their countries and only few ass lickers are controlling the whole country and under the cover there is poverty and poor people only who has no right to speak.. no freedom.... no rights.

in the western world if a PM didn't pay his traffic fine he get kicked out from his post but in the Arab world the policeman who made the fine will disappear from the planet for making that fine.

you are all not living there, so you will never know who it.

Hamas.... complicated story, it is not clear how and why they reach that level, but they actually did discover the corruption in between the Fateh regime. did you know that one of the Palestinian ministers own the contract for supplying the concrete for the wall Israel built!!! do you want more irony than that, one of the Palestinians is actually helping the Jews strangle his own citizens????!!!!


There is much more than what you see in the TV. Israel is building a case in the media showing they are the poor people and the Palestinians are the killers, wake up people, don't believe everything you see on the TV, do some inquires and search you will be amazed. I am 1000000% sure of that. that is in a way like the 9/11 propaganda and all what is around it.


I am one of those people living this reality every day, and I can tell you that lies in the media is unbelievable. In this part of the world media is not only being censored but actually badly used and produced to poison the mind of the people.

I am not one of Hamas group or any other regime, but simple one of those living this story every single day who want the people to see the truth.
Microshit
QUOTE(raum @ Jul 8 2006, 20:17) *

I never said it was all worth it. But after seeing this contunue for as long as it has, I have come to expect it from the area.

I said that Palestine is suffering because of the killing of Israeli soldiers and the capture of one in Israel. Those kidnappers are to blame. I can tell you that.

And after seeing what HAMAS used as a platform to get elected, I am not suprised they are failing and Palestine is suffering as a result of their strategy. But they don't care. They hate Israel more than they love Palestine.

Your question makes no sense. See, OUR OWN GOVT. WOULD ENFORCE THE LAW AND RETRIEVE THE SOLDIER. And my family would just get out of the way and let that govt. do its job.

I do not delight in that the world is full of people who kill others to achieve their own ends. I accept it, though, and am willing to defend myself and my loved ones.

Micro, how do you feel about the Israelies who have been killed, or had their lives destroyed?

I mourn for both sides, and wish Palestine would police it own people and stop those attacking Israel. Until then Israel is defending itself from Anarchy. and the best way is with a long range attack.

If Israel laid down its arms, Palestine would continue to attack, and Israeli groups would launch their own attacks.

Better Israel stay in control of the warriors it is has trained.

You are making this issue sound like theres actual control in Palestine. There is no government, so there is no law to enforce. Again, the kidnapping is a result of Israel's orginal, illegal, inhuman occupation. Its all about revenge. Hamas won fair and square, they were voted for. Not just because it doesnt meet to USA's democratic "traits" means they didn't win fairly. They won fairly, and dont try fishing out some article that states otherwise. It was fair.


QUOTE
They hate Israel more than they love Palestine.


That seriously makes no sense. Why the hell do they hate Israel? Because they are occupying their homeland. They are fighting for Palestine's independance, which means they care. Would you fight for something you dont care about? blink.gif

QUOTE
If Israel laid down its arms, Palestine would continue to attack.


The first statement is impractical. And IF it did happen, and Palestine got their lands, they would stop fighting. I mean, what do they have to fight with? Rockets made in their kitchen that travel a few meters? Besides, Palesinians, and I am speaking on behalf of many many Palestinians I know, want to feel alive. They want to be humans again, they dont want land, they dont want money, they want their lands, its their right. Not every country has imperialistic ambitions.

QUOTE
how do you feel about the Israelies who have been killed, or had their lives destroyed?

I would personally feel hopeless because this is just adding to the fire.
Besides, if someone punched you, wouldn't you punch back?

The only difference I can see between Palestinians and Israelites is the fact that Israelites want the cake and the crums.
raum
QUOTE
let's but some facts here, this soldier who was kidnapped was actually on duty killing other Palestinians along with his dead soldiers


Let's have some more facts.

1. That soldier did not volunteer. He was conscripted.

2. He was on guard duty. Not in a combat zone.

3. He was in Israel. and so were the other two guards.

4. This was premeditated for at least months.

-------------------

I am by far not a media baby on these matters. I know people from many Middle Eastern nations including Israel and Palestine, and have been to the Middle East, myself,

I have had friends leave from America to go to the area to protest and try to help. And what they report is unquestionably that Palestinian authority does NOTHING to root out these dangerous factions from citizens who only want peace.

This means the Palestinian authority does nothing to prevent this paramilitant gorups from using the state of Palestine as a base of operations, and from using the Palestinian people as bullet shields.

that is appalling.
Microshit
What the, I agree with you man, Hamas is not a government. They are ruining the country and its reputation. The Palestinain Authority is far from organized, and far from experience.

BUT they WERE elected, and they DO care about the nation, but their actions are just without thought. And no that doesnt justify anything.
Madrose
QUOTE

Let's have some more facts.
1. That soldier did not volunteer. He was conscripted.

It doesn't make any difference, he has been involved in the action, and you don't know for a fact what was their mission and what was the last duty they performed.

QUOTE

2. He was on guard duty. Not in a combat zone.

The duty is actually in an occupied area as i said earlier. Israel is an occupation force on an occupied state, therefore they are always in a state of war.

QUOTE

3. He was in Israel. and so were the other two guards.

What is Israel exactly???!!! Again I say it is merely an occupation force on an occupied territory.

QUOTE

4. This was premeditated for at least months.

Even thought, it is still a fact.


The Palestinians at this stage has no faith in any Arab government nor International organization. They know that Israel is using the world media as a medium to show the story from their prospective. I know some foreigners are there trying to help, but what can they do….????!!!!!
dkreifus
@Micro...

What Raum was saying is that thre wouldn't be any military action if the terrorists didn't kidnap the soldier.

And to say that Israel doesn't want peace is just playing into the brainwashing that the Iranian president and Hamas are spewing out.

Israel has asked for 1 thing. They want the terrorists stopped. The Palestinian government hasn't done that.

How can you argue that there is no government in Palestine, and yet Hamas was brought in by a rightful vote.
Microshit
Prove to me Israel wants peace.
K2
QUOTE(dkreifus @ Jul 9 2006, 16:14) *
How can you argue that there is no government in Palestine, and yet Hamas was brought in by a rightful vote.
You can't have it both ways, man. Either you say hamas got elected and see them as a governement (and don't freeze palestinian money, or kidnap their ministers and elected MP's), or either you say they are terrorists.

I am a supporter of the first interpretation: no matter what they did, they got elected, and kidnapping ministers by a foreign nation is pretty unseen in history, I would dare to say... Do that to any other nation in the world and it's considered as an act of war. That shows you how much credit we give Israel in this conflict.

And let's not be childish about this: If Israel blows up a power plant, and several bridges, they aren't doing it to save a soldiers life, there is another agenda... I can't come up with a proper theory on how you can save a soldier by cutting 100.000's of people from power. To add to that, that is called collective punishment, another thing that is considered as an illegal act of war... But who is counting, when Israel is involved, right?

@microshit: You somehow SERIOUSLY underestimate the military power of Israel. A kidnapped soldier is the worst thing that can happen to a public opnion, of course you will do whatever it takes to get him back. Look at Iraq: 2 American soldiers went missing, and 8.000(!) soldiers searched for them.

I know it's not easy to admit, but there is no denying that Jews are considered as the world's biggest evil in a lot of Arab nations. To give you a small example: A link to the The protocols of the Elders of Zion. A book that talks about the "big jewish conspiracy to rule the world". Everywhere considered as a (bad) joke, a bestseller in the Arab world, used in schoolbooks in Saudi-Arabia. And what the president of Iran is saying about the holocaust can be labelled as an often heard opinion on Arab streets.

It's a bit off-topic, I know, but the point I insist on making is this: Palestinia and Israel are in war, and you can't request them to "act nicely". (Illegal) acts of war will continue to happen from both sides, that is how war works: no humanity, no decency.

The only way to get to peace comes from the coalition members in this war: For me the USA has a massive responsabilty in supporting this war to go on for decades already, but on the other side, the responsability of Arab nations is equally big!
dkreifus
In 1917, the Balfour Declaration was created by England which would have given Israel land on both sides of the Jordan river. In 1922, the land on the east of the Jordan River was given to Prince Abdullah to create a Palestinian state called Transjordan. (That takes away 75% of their land). In 1937, the Peel Commission came up with a plan to settle the dispute between Arabs and Israel. They were dividing the Western side of the Jordan river into 2 states. The arabs rejected this plan. Israel accepted it.

In 1947 the Partition Plan, created by the UN. It divided the western side of the Jordan river. Israel had only 15% of the original promised land. They STILL accepted the agreement in the name of peace. The Arabs rejected it.

1948: Israel's declaration of independence.
QUOTE
We extend our hand to all neighboring states and their peoples in an offer of peace and good neighborliness, and appeal to them to establish bonds of cooperation and mutual help with the sovereign Jewish people settled in its own land. The State of Israel is prepared to do its share in a common effort for the advancement of the entire Middle East.


In 1979, Israel gave away the Sinai Peninsula to Eygpt in an agreement to have peaceful relations with Eygpt.

In 2000, Israel's PM offered to Yasser Arafat the following deal. To give 97% of the territories. The last 3% would come from the Negev, connected to the Gaza. They offered control of East Jerusalem, and areas of the Old City. Control over the Temple Mount(one of Judisms holiest sites).Compensation to Palestinian refugees who did not want to return to Israel.

Ariel Sharon:
QUOTE
"We are committed to peace and I am ready to make painful concessions for peace. But I will not make any concession on the security of the people of Israel,"


A public statement. Meanwhile, Hamas hasn't even acknowledge that Israel has a right to exist, or that they will renownce violence against it.

All of Israel's attacks/military movements have been a RETALIATION for attacks. Rockets, whether made in a kitchen, or given by a Aran neighbor, are rockets with the intent to kills. The Palestinian governmnet has yet to make any attempt to stop the terrorists in their own land. Granted, Abbas has done more than Arafat ever pretended to do, but with Hamas in charge, he is crippled in his power.



Oh..and this:

QUOTE
Olmert said the violence in Gaza would not deter him from carrying out his plan to leave the West Bank
virtualraider
Good post dkreifus, smile.gif smile.gif unfortunately some are blinded by their own rage and will never be able to see or accept the truth.
K2
QUOTE(dkreifus @ Jul 10 2006, 14:42) *
Ariel Sharon:
QUOTE
"We are committed to peace and I am ready to make painful concessions for peace. But I will not make any concession on the security of the people of Israel,"
Don't know... all these statements. Only about Ehud barak (in 2000) I can agree, but he seems to have been the last Israeli PM that really wanted peace: And don't forget, 2000 was the last time the USA has put pressure on Israel! (with Sharon we will never know, some say he had big plans for the future).

But take the Sharon statement... That is so easy: We want peace, but... The "but" gives you so much room to do whatever you like.

How about the security of Palestinians?

In the Israeli propaganda qassam missiles are almost turned into weapons of mass destruction, while they are a joke (I don't even know whether they have ever made a fatal casualty?), and that gives Israel the right to retaliate with their firepower: REAL firepower, and we all know innocents get killed (not to mention that I STILL don't see the link between retaliation and bombing a power plant).

So security... Israel surely has a moral obligation to defend all of it's citizens, but to constantly talk about Israel security and the huge problem of terrorists seems rather hollow if you know the number of casualties is far higher on the Palestinian side compared to the Israeli side.
Madrose
QUOTE(K2 @ Jul 10 2006, 12:23) *

QUOTE(dkreifus @ Jul 9 2006, 16:14) *
How can you argue that there is no government in Palestine, and yet Hamas was brought in by a rightful vote.
You can't have it both ways, man. Either you say hamas got elected and see them as a governement (and don't freeze palestinian money, or kidnap their ministers and elected MP's), or either you say they are terrorists.

I am a supporter of the first interpretation: no matter what they did, they got elected, and kidnapping ministers by a foreign nation is pretty unseen in history, I would dare to say... Do that to any other nation in the world and it's considered as an act of war. That shows you how much credit we give Israel in this conflict.

And let's not be childish about this: If Israel blows up a power plant, and several bridges, they aren't doing it to save a soldiers life, there is another agenda... I can't come up with a proper theory on how you can save a soldier by cutting 100.000's of people from power. To add to that, that is called collective punishment, another thing that is considered as an illegal act of war... But who is counting, when Israel is involved, right?

@microshit: You somehow SERIOUSLY underestimate the military power of Israel. A kidnapped soldier is the worst thing that can happen to a public opnion, of course you will do whatever it takes to get him back. Look at Iraq: 2 American soldiers went missing, and 8.000(!) soldiers searched for them.

I know it's not easy to admit, but there is no denying that Jews are considered as the world's biggest evil in a lot of Arab nations. To give you a small example: A link to the The protocols of the Elders of Zion. A book that talks about the "big jewish conspiracy to rule the world". Everywhere considered as a (bad) joke, a bestseller in the Arab world, used in schoolbooks in Saudi-Arabia. And what the president of Iran is saying about the holocaust can be labelled as an often heard opinion on Arab streets.

It's a bit off-topic, I know, but the point I insist on making is this: Palestinia and Israel are in war, and you can't request them to "act nicely". (Illegal) acts of war will continue to happen from both sides, that is how war works: no humanity, no decency.

The only way to get to peace comes from the coalition members in this war: For me the USA has a massive responsabilty in supporting this war to go on for decades already, but on the other side, the responsability of Arab nations is equally big!

Let me ask you a question, what is that Balfour Declaration? And who gave it? And on which bases exactly?
I didn’t know that an occupation force can donate a part of the occupied country to someone else!!!! Does changing the occupation force make the occupation legal? I am sure that is not acceptable in any international law, and no country will accept that, period. That mean the base where Israel started is not legal the first place therefore everything built on that should be cancelled.
Where does that leave us?
Israel is still an occupation force and they DO NOT have the right to be there the first place, so what are we talking about here? People defending their home land and they captured one of their enemies. So why the whole world suddenly wake up today for this one soldier??!!! Only last week an entire family was wiped out while on a picnic, didn’t you see that on TV, or your TV only broadcast what is approve/inline by the Jews agenda??!! I really want to hear an answer for this question.
Additionally to that, prove to us that Israel want peace and they actually worked to achieve that.
WHAT DEFENCE RETALATION you are talking about!!!! Please, they kill people and run in front of the media and say that we were defensive???? Please respect our inelegance, when an entire family is wiped out the media suddenly has blackout and the world leaders suddenly become voided and there is not even a one statement.
Why the entire world is bothered about the nuclear power of Iran while nobody said anything for Israel, the only country who didn’t sign on the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty?!?!?!?!? I am not defending Iran here rather than making a live example.
QUOTE

Since resolutions 242 and 338, the Security Council has taken no significant steps to end the Israel-Palestine conflict. United States influence has generally kept the issue off the Council's agenda. When Council members have introduced resolutions, responding to periodic crises, the US has repeatedly used its veto on Israel's behalf. The General Assembly has taken a more active and creative role in the conflict, yet its resolutions are non-binding and have largely symbolic weight.

This was taken from http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/issues/isrlindx.htm and it clearly state that the issue was kept on the shelves for many years and US used their power in the UN in Israel favour. Also The Guardian article yesterday shows the conspiracy 50 years ago, read more here http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,,1816712,00.html
dkreifus
@K2
At least the PMs are talking peace. Hamas won't even dissavow violence, or acknowledge Israel.

And about the quassam missles. I guess since they don't do damage, they should just ignore them until someone gets hurt.

The intent is still there. They are missles. They are aimed at Israeli towns, with the intent to kill.

Are you saying that if someone makes a half-assed attempt at murder, we should just leave them alone and let them walk free. Then, when they kill someone, we should go and respond?

If a guy is walking around waving a gun, should we just say "Nah, he hasn't actually hit a single person with his bullets yet. Once he gets someone, then we get him?"

@Madrose...
You're talking a game of history. It's been discussed on this board many times. Who was there first. You can go back into the bible and see that the Jewish people were there first.

And the WHOLE WORLD is revolving around land that was occupied from someone else. The 'winner' of that debate is a matter of where in history you stop looking. The further back, the more it changes.
Madrose
QUOTE(dkreifus @ Jul 11 2006, 09:35) *

@K2
At least the PMs are talking peace. Hamas won't even dissavow violence, or acknowledge Israel.

And about the quassam missles. I guess since they don't do damage, they should just ignore them until someone gets hurt.

The intent is still there. They are missles. They are aimed at Israeli towns, with the intent to kill.

Are you saying that if someone makes a half-assed attempt at murder, we should just leave them alone and let them walk free. Then, when they kill someone, we should go and respond?

If a guy is walking around waving a gun, should we just say "Nah, he hasn't actually hit a single person with his bullets yet. Once he gets someone, then we get him?"

@Madrose...
You're talking a game of history. It's been discussed on this board many times. Who was there first. You can go back into the bible and see that the Jewish people were there first.

And the WHOLE WORLD is revolving around land that was occupied from someone else. The 'winner' of that debate is a matter of where in history you stop looking. The further back, the more it changes.

There is a huge difference between talking and action, Israel can talk day and night and their actions are on the absolute opposite. We asked you to prove that they are really trying to achieve peace.
It is a never ending debate and thanks to the media Israel created a huge coverage for their favour. Poor Palestinians they could not build up their case in front of the media so they have to accept to be the losers.
History is written by victorious, and truth is relative and it depends on who say it.
K2
QUOTE(dkreifus @ Jul 11 2006, 11:35) *
They are missles. They are aimed at Israeli towns, with the intent to kill.


And that is what Israeli missiles do:

They are missles. They are aimed at Israeli Palestinian towns, with the intent to kill.

@Madrose: Where are you from? And what is this jibberish about the media... "Jews agenda"... They are all part of the worldwide jewish conspiracy or what? shifty.gif




dkreifus
And in the news today:
Israeli leaders order new Gaza incursions

QUOTE
Israeli leaders ordered new incursions into the Gaza Strip, security officials said Tuesday, after the Hamas leader said he would not free an Israeli soldier whose capture by Palestinian militants has led to a bloody 13-day confrontation.
This started with an Israeli soldier being kidnapped. And the HAMAS leader is refusing to free the soldier they kidnapped. So Israeli responded to a kidnapped soldier. And isn't Hamas the ruling party of the government. So when the government of a nation acts, it acts on behalf of its country. So..the nation of Palestine has kidnapped an Israeli soldier, and is holding him hostage. That last part may be a stretch, due to the instability of everything in the PA.

QUOTE
Prime Minister Ehud Olmert and Defense Minister Amir Peretz gave the green light to additional incursions into Gaza to free the soldier and stop Palestinian rocket attacks
So. They said quite plainly. To stop rockets and get back a soldier. I don't see anything about reclaiming any part of the land, or trying to do anymore than that.

QUOTE
The two men spoke within hours of each other — Olmert in Jerusalem, Mashaal in Damascus, Syria. Neither expressed any readiness to compromise, boding poorly for bringing an end to Israel's Gaza Strip incursion that has already killed 58 Palestinians and an Israeli soldier.
Well, they don't mention that many of these 58 palestinians are terrorists. I agree, its a shame people, including innocents are dying.

QUOTE
"Khaled Mashaal is a terrorist with blood on his hands. He's not a legitimate partner for anything. He's not a partner and he won't be a partner. I will not negotiate with Hamas," the Israeli leader said.
Well, Hamas is a recgonized terrorist organization, that has yet to renounce its violent ways. The world pretty much has a 'will not negotiate with terrorists' policy. Fair enough.

QUOTE
The army said the last attack targeted a group of militants who had just launched a rocket into Israel. On Tuesday, an Israeli aircraft attacked a bridge in northern Gaza to stop militants from transporting rockets, the military said. A Palestinian militant group also claimed that it fired a rocket from the northern West Bank into Israel
So they fire a rocket, and Israel responds. Pretty much the normal actions for anyone to take when attacked. And the bridge.. oh wait, they were transporting more rockets.

QUOTE
A Palestinian militant group also claimed that it fired a rocket from the northern West Bank into Israel. The Al Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades, a violent offshoot of Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas' Fatah movement, took credit for the rocket attack. The Israeli military said it had no evidence of a rocket being fired or landing in Israel.
So Israel doesn't have any evidence of an attack..so they don't respond. Seems pretty fair.


All I am trying to prove is that Israel is responding to attacks. Yes, the attacks are rockets, and the terrorists have lousy aim. Well, don't shoot the rockets, don't kidnap soldiers, and even pretend to be peaceful, and then there can be progress towards peace.
Madrose
QUOTE
This started with an Israeli soldier being kidnapped. And the HAMAS leader is refusing to free the soldier they kidnapped. So Israeli responded to a kidnapped soldier. And isn't Hamas the ruling party of the government. So when the government of a nation acts, it acts on behalf of its country. So..the nation of Palestine has kidnapped an Israeli soldier, and is holding him hostage. That last part may be a stretch, due to the instability of everything in the PA.

Let me correct that, Israel started thing when they killed the family on the peach followed by others in the city. Please watch other than the official Israel TV channel.
QUOTE

So. They said quite plainly. To stop rockets and get back a soldier. I don't see anything about reclaiming any part of the land, or trying to do anymore than that.

They say this to convince people so naïve in what is so called the industrial world.
QUOTE

Well, they don't mention that many of these 58 palestinians are terrorists. I agree, its a shame people, including innocents are dying.

PLEASE PLEASE don’t let me start posting images for those terrorist as you called them. There was even a 1 week old infant in this group of terrorist as you call them shot in the head. And I warn you those images are very disturbing.
QUOTE

Well, Hamas is a recgonized terrorist organization, that has yet to renounce its violent ways. The world pretty much has a 'will not negotiate with terrorists' policy. Fair enough.

Now a days any one who is not with the system, any system will be tagged as a terror so when he is killed nobody will come and claim his body even.
QUOTE

So they fire a rocket, and Israel responds. Pretty much the normal actions for anyone to take when attacked. And the bridge.. oh wait, they were transporting more rockets.

What about the electricity and water supply? They will manufacture rockets from water and electricity?

QUOTE

All I am trying to prove is that Israel is responding to attacks. Yes, the attacks are rockets, and the terrorists have lousy aim. Well, don't shoot the rockets, don't kidnap soldiers, and even pretend to be peaceful, and then there can be progress towards peace.

Well tell Israel to stop building the wall, stop assassinating Palestinians, free the prisoners, stop killing people on picnic and most importantly go out from the country they are occupying and no body will touch them.
Madrose
QUOTE(K2 @ Jul 11 2006, 11:27) *

QUOTE(dkreifus @ Jul 11 2006, 11:35) *
They are missles. They are aimed at Israeli towns, with the intent to kill.


And that is what Israeli missiles do:

They are missles. They are aimed at Israeli Palestinian towns, with the intent to kill.

@Madrose: Where are you from? And what is this jibberish about the media... "Jews agenda"... They are all part of the worldwide jewish conspiracy or what? shifty.gif

Does it matter where i am from????
dkreifus
Madrose..your arguments are based on where you are from.
I don't watch Israeli tv, as I am from the USA.

Your arguments are very tainted, and I believe you said you are from Palestine or that area.

And, according to Human Rights Watch:
QUOTE
The attack at the beach comes amidst an intensified Israeli response to Qassam rocket attacks by Palestinian armed groups operating in the area. Human Rights Watch, which is also investigating the use of Qassams against Israeli civilians, has previously called on Palestinian armed groups to cease such unlawful attacks. The Qassam attacks violate international law because they fail to discriminate between military targets and civilians. Qassam rockets are highly imprecise, homemade weapons that are incapable of being targeted at specific objects.


Again, Israeli response to attacks.
dkreifus
QUOTE(K2 @ Jul 11 2006, 07:27) *

And that is what Israeli missiles do:

They are missles. They are aimed at Israeli Palestinian towns, with the intent to kill.


I agree, but Israelie missles come as responsle to the Palestinian missles.
Madrose
QUOTE(dkreifus @ Jul 11 2006, 12:33) *

Madrose..your arguments are based on where you are from.
I don't watch Israeli tv, as I am from the USA.

Your arguments are very tainted, and I believe you said you are from Palestine or that area.

And, according to Human Rights Watch:
QUOTE
The attack at the beach comes amidst an intensified Israeli response to Qassam rocket attacks by Palestinian armed groups operating in the area. Human Rights Watch, which is also investigating the use of Qassams against Israeli civilians, has previously called on Palestinian armed groups to cease such unlawful attacks. The Qassam attacks violate international law because they fail to discriminate between military targets and civilians. Qassam rockets are highly imprecise, homemade weapons that are incapable of being targeted at specific objects.


Again, Israeli response to attacks.

Yes I am a very proud Palestinian and my opinion is based on what i have witnessed during my life.
and from the way you are defending Israel I am not so sure you are an Amarican.
And if your small brother slap you on your face you slap him back????
An army targets a family on picnic in a response to Qassam attack, that is ridicules. It makes me laugh
raum
Qassams kill people.

http://www.weaponsurvey.com/missilesrockets.htm

who ever thinks a qassam is a joke has obviously never seen a missile.

Israel is not an occupying force, it is a country that won its independence from Britain.

Whoever REALLY wants to be in charge of Palestine needs to quit whining, police their people, hunt down people firing missiles from their country, arrest them, and execute them as enemies of the state, and establish Freedom of Religion, which is the most basic unalienable right, not the friggin right to vote when you haven't a clue what democratic responsibilty it. I swear THAT pisses me off more that anything.

In America, you have to be educated for some 14 years, and take history and civics classes to be, by proxy of age, to be given the right to vote.

In Palestine, you have to what lived in squalor you hold Israel responsible for because of your fear of the dictator of the week's cronies who are building missiles in your backyard with your kid duct taped to their chest.

Until People see that Palestine is a anarchy, and establish control, they will never get what they need. No one in Palestine has enough experience or even enough of a vision of a free society to CREATE ONE. A country starving and inpoverished used govt. funds to buy 111 truckloads of TV's for the world cup???

and for HEAVEN's SAKE, stop people from digging tunnels into Israel. That tunnel took so long to dig, they had to have started it when Israel was still in Gaza. So, people starve and HAMAS digs a tunnel into Israel. lovely.

IF I dug a tunnel into Mexico, and killed two mexican soldiers and kidnapped a third - Mexico would have complete assurance The US would deliver me to Justice.

------

and of course we go back to the fact that most of the people who think Israel is just an occupying force will have no end of compassion for an anarchy in Palestine in response to "the occupying zionist trailer park" on their lot. sigh.

------

As far as the little girl, truly sad for her family,.. having a picnic. on a beach, where there's a minefield. and people have fired missiles. who had a cameraman waiting for the "fatal zionist hate strike." while a battleship was test firing it's weapons.

--------

And I loved the media on that. like Five scenes.

0. Peaceful happy fun day at beach full of people.
(beach footage not of that day)

1. Family on beach.
(not the family that suffered the explosion)

2. Iraeli ship fires.
(from eariler that day)

3. Family dead and dying.
(after the explosion)

4. Israeli ship officer looks through binoculars.
(not even that day, from Israeli news footage)

5. Girl screaming and rolling in the sand and blood.

-------------
Hey, call me crazy or Godless or whatever. But the TAO OF COMMON SENSE says "Beach used by missile teams attacking Israel, full of landmines, not good place for picnic."

Furthermore, the TAO OF SELF-PRESERVATION says "Do not not have picnic within site of battleship firing its weapons."

Yeah, we Taoists are clearly not God's favorites. That's why we practice lifestyles for happiness and longevity and Sorcery, hehe.

and from the way God treats his *favorites*, I'll stay in the back of the class, thank you.
K2
QUOTE(dkreifus @ Jul 11 2006, 14:38) *
QUOTE(K2 @ Jul 11 2006, 07:27) *

And that is what Israeli missiles do:

They are missles. They are aimed at Israeli Palestinian towns, with the intent to kill.
I agree, but Israelie missles come as responsle to the Palestinian missles.
Well, I don't think that matters a lot when the consequences are the same: Killing innocent civilians... You can't hold every single Palestinian responisble for every missile fired, so I give Palestinians every right to be very very angry when civilians die under Israeli fire.

@madrose: Hmm, Palestinian? I can see why you aren't too fond of Israel, but really: there is no big Jewish conspiracy, and the worldmedia aren't "official Israeli TV channels". And yes, some of us try to see both sides of the story... The big pity is that it seems impossible to discuss this subject without being placed in 1 camp... unsure.gif

QUOTE(raum @ Jul 11 2006, 15:21) *
In America, you have to be educated for some 14 years, and take history and civics classes to be, by proxy of age, to be given the right to vote.

In Palestine, you have to what lived in squalor you hold Israel responsible for because of your fear of the dictator of the week's cronies who are building missiles in your backyard with your kid duct taped to their chest.
My God man, you are an idiot. You remind me of a fellow student years ago who wanted to introduce an IQ test, and let that decide whether you could vote or not... Back then I was very pissed, now I'm not too sure anymore... The good part would be that people like you wouldn't be allowed to vote.

But please, enlighten us further, which other people do you feel haven't earned the right for democratic elections? Can I vote? I'm from Belgium. Is that up to your standards? Or should I follow some courses in an American school? ermm.gif
dkreifus
@madrose...

You have clearly shown palestinian propaganda. The Israeli's did NOT target a girl and her family on the beach. Its a shame that 7-8 innocent people were killed on a beach where terrorists were shooting rockets off earlier.

If a (little) brother, which is hadly a fair comparison to use for palestine, smacked me, if I didn't smack him back, then someone else would. Otherwise, he would grow up having no fear or worry of consequence, because he could do what he wants and the moment someone hits him back, he whines and cries.
Wait..that does sound appropriate.

madrose... I bet you didn't care over the deaths of the innocent people on the buses and in the stores that your fellow palestininans blew up with bombs, but I bet you celebrated.

I bet you danced, drank and probably burned the American flag when 9/11 happened.

@K2
I, by no means, hold every palestinian responsible. But I do think there is some level of responsibility needed. They elected a terrorist organization, whose intent was clear. They knew what hamas stood for.

I don't think the individuals are creating the rockets, but they should make a bigger effort to stop it.
raum
woah, there, K2.

My point was that an uninformed decision is often an impotent decision. We learn our history because it vividly demonstrates the importance of our decisions. That is part of our education. I was saying plain and simple Palestine was given "free reign" way too fast to have any big expectations. Noone has any control that is not still backed by a faction of their group dedicated to forming motley crews of paramilitant gangs. These gangs bully the people who oppose them (or run them out, like my friend "mari" whose family had to go to Egypt because of death threats for not being Muslim; and eventually came to America when she was little).

I have seen encouragement of kids to die to cause the Palestinian cause to grow stronger. SOME mothers pray for their children to become shahid.

Kids play the shahid game, where they choose who gets to commit a suicide attack, and the rest of the children have a funeral, and then they wake him up, as the virgins dedicated to the shahid's honor.

not even the people who seem to have a bit of flexibility, like Abbas, who belongs to the same fatah, that has its own headband and handgrenade brigade. and many of the kids who got trained by arafat's message are the people of voting Age.

where's the freedom in a country where the only way to power is through a poorly made missile?

See, I do not believe the right to vote is more important than the right to Freedom of Religion. Religion is in the realm of inspiration, and thus in the realm of imagination,.. the realm of the dreams, hopes, and even the fears of mankind. If you do not have freedom to explore that, how can you have any freedom at all? That is why it is the most unalienable right of all men, women, and children.

To me, Politics is for the control of those who either fear freedom or lack an understanding of it. Palestine "elected" leaders who represent the will of the People, which has been subjugated to complete atrocity. What kind of decision comes from that? of course, an atrocious one.

Remember, I was the one that wanted to give HAMAS the benefit of the doubt and hope for the sake of Israel and Palestine (and Egypt and Jordan and etc.) they would mature into a stable platform for direction of the will of the Palestinian people toward progress, tolerance, and prosperity.

Hmm,.. let's see what kind of future HAMAS is planning, from their kid's web site http://www.al-fateh.net/fa-79/karama.htm

Let's ask "Horseman of Osama" on their guestlist what he wants to be when he grows up. And I honestly think its a shame that little boy, who is about 6 years old, will probably be dead or a murderer before he is 30. or hopefully, he will grow up and mature,.. but, for now, doubtful.






I am not an idiot, but I am simple man.

Take a dog, forcefeed it biscuits with a scalding hot fork. do that for a few years. every day. let it have puppies, and do the same with them. then when they are all grown up, untie them, and say "you're free! go and vote~"

they will tear your face off.

In that way, man is like a dog until he aspires to be something more.
Madrose
@dkreifus
It is a shame also that 2 soldiers died and one kidnapped, it is even less than eye for an eye (3 lives instead of 7).

Open your eyes, innocent people are dying from both side and it doesn’t make sense at all to party today and cry tomorrow. We are very intelligent people and we know those facts, but we also know for a fact that if those people keep quite they will simple lose everything and most of them will end in an Israel’s prison. Regardles of how you will argue with this it will not change the reality that the people are living there. They have tried the peace agreement with Israel, and Israel out smart us (I have to admit that) and they didn’t fulfil even 50% of the agreements done in Jordan almost 10 years ago. That is an enough proof for us to see the intentions of Israel.

And to answer your question, NO we don’t dance and get drunk like a barbarian, not in 9/11 nor in 7/7 or any other tragic incidence. And this is the type of agenda I am talking about. American channels has broadcasted Palestinians dancing on the 9/11 and claimed they are dancing and cheering for the 9/11, and it was proved with no doubts that what was broadcasted is a wedding party happened even before the 9/11. But this fact was not broadcasted in the same way. WHY IS THAT??????

Let me ask you another question, Why nowadays most of the people (not governments) worldwide hate US (not the American citizens)? You look around you and see what Americans are doing around the globe, see Afghanistan, Iraq, Sudan, Korea, Vietnam, Cuba and much more. Time has proved that all excuse are no valid and they only used the media to tackle the human nature and the fear part of it. We can open another thread for this subject alone if you want.

All what I am asking you for is to open your eyes and look for the truth beyond the news and words said by the officials regardless of whom they are.


@k2
I appreciate that you are trying to see both sides of the story, but the question is, are you looking in the right places? If you are interested and I can give some materials to read or simple give you links, and I promise you that none of those materials / links are written by any Arab or a Muslim but the say the truth.
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