BBC News-


I swear this fucking spread of "democracy" fucked up our world. The bastard just DOES NOT GET IT. Every country and culture has its own form of government. Secondly, every country has its officials and they dont need to be told what kind of government they have to follow. Fuck, his call for democracy was rejected in all of Asia, Russia (Putin clearly rejected Bushs request for democracy), the entire Middle East, and now cuba!

This guy JUST DOESNT GET IT. He travels all around the world, spreading his democracy as if he was some sort of salesman. Fucking backdown and leave the countries of the world to govern themselves, AS THEY WISH.

Dictatorships are not really the will of the people anyways. There have been celebrations all over Little Havana because the Cuban immigrants think that this may finally lead to democracy in Cuba. The Islamic extremist terrorists might hate democracies, but it's a completely different situation with Cuba.

Do your reasearch, but from what I understand, MANY Cubans, the majority even, are loyal to Fidel and his government.

On another note, I am complaining about the spread of democracy itself in general. It just doesnt work, and its attempt is extremely disrespectful to the officials of nations.

Democracy has been in existence for centuries. It does work. It just hasn't worked with Bush. But every system has its flaws, there is hardly a perfect one

Most cubans support castro out of fear. That is the primary problem with any dicatorship. The leader instills a fear of opposition. IE: Sadaam.

Yeah but I still firmly belive that it is very disrespectful for Bush to act like "king of the world" and command countries to follow democracy, and if they dont, they suffer sanctions, or even war.

Above you said do your research, How about some research from you, do you know how many people have tried to leave the country? and this is still ongoing.


Did you read the whole article on why Bush made these comments?

Where is the link to the article you posted?

Here is a link for you Educate Yourself

I know that many fled. Don't talk to me like I'm two. I also know that the majority is loyal to Fidel, weather its through fear or not.

^ Would love to see an unbiased poll of their loyalty.

microshit, i could not agree with you more

democracy may work, but it shouldn't be spread about like the plague. if cubans (and all other people in the world for that matter) are unhappy, they would have done something. the fact that they havent doesnt merely show that there is a fear of consequence for rebellion, it shows that the majority hasn't gotten pissed off enough to take action yet.

if bush were the president for an indefinite period, i could guarantee that at some point a majority would seek action to remove his power. the 4-year term has been very effective in preventing rebellions because everyone knows it'll all be over by the time anyone could make any significant changes

In practice, the only places in the world where democarcy has worked is when the people wanted it so bad that they made it happen themselves. It never would have happened in Iraq on its own, and it's not likely to happen in Cuba on its own either.

While there's oppression happening there (no denying that), Cuba isn't in the same situation as many of the dictatorships in the world. They have good public schools, good social and medical programs, good retirement programs - all things our much-vaunted capitalist democracy has yet to make any significant strides in. Castro may suffer no insurrection, but he HAS been very successful in providing for his people - which is why it's not surprising to see people upset over his failing health. It's doubtful that any successor would be as good as him at the job. On the scale of dictators, and in the realm of communist countries, they're by far the most successful. Just imagine how well they could have been doing if the US wasn't boycotting them on every front.

And, as far as oppression goes, the US really can't talk much currently. In the last 10 years there have been a lot of things done here that are right up there with day-to-day operations in Cuba.

Whether it is through fear or not.

So what are you saying exactly. You condone the fear that Fidel imposes on the people of Cuba? You agree its OK to murder the people who do not think like you. Its OK to throw people in jail just because?

Are you sure you are not two? your comments make me wonder...

Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa… Compare the education, health, and financial status of the averate Cuban to that of the average American. If Cuba was that great, then people wouldn't be floating on truck rafts just to get out of there.

It is a real shame that people have to live in fear of a dictator such as Fidel. Makes you appreciate that you can come onto a forum such as this, and bash Bush until the cows come home, without consequences.

Other nations, you would be found, killed, tortured, fined, jailed, you name it.

If Cuba wants/needs change, the USA is not the coutry to dictate that. If the UNITED Nations feel that way, it is different. Let the world act as one, rather than one nation acting for the world

don't you just love him?

in all serious now, i can't wait to see the american population's vote come next election. im hoping there will be some new candidates who have completely different views than we've seen before. but in all reality, we're gonna be good little sheep and vote only for 2 major parties like we're supposed to...

Show some fucking respect, I did not in any way offend you so you have no right to offend me.
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Anyway, yes I believe there has to be fear in the civilians from the government. I do not agree with the murders or anyof that stuff. You know that. I personally believe that citizens must fear their government to some extent.

But as I was saying, Bush has to fix and put effort in HIS country. PERIOD. He has no bussiness in any other, unless they seek his help.

A governments job is to protect the people. Why should the people fear the government

Goverments should fear their people, not the other way around.

You offend every time you use a swear word in this forum. To me you are not entitled to respect because every time you speak you are disrespectful.

On this side of the world we do not fear are governments, we hold them accountable; and our Government are made up of people who what to make things better for the general population. The US has a large population of Cubans who left Cuba, they have a voice in United States and their voice is heard by the people who where voted in to office, these representatives are compelled to act when these people speak. Bush and many other have heard them, so they have responded.

Damn, some of you people.... really amaze me.


Anyways, my mom's best friend is Cuban. I happen to know and spoken to lots and lots of Cubans because I lived in miami for years.


I dont know but from what they tell me things aren't really that great as some of you may believe. They have some of the best doctors in the world, but do not think for a second that Cubans enjoy the benefits of that in a big scale if at all.


Do not think for a second that many cubans go to bed hungry.


Do no think that many cubans have family members that have been killed or have just disappeared.


Really, some of you need to get your asses to Miami, and talk to some cubans. Forget the spoke people that talk in the name of the exile, talk to ordinary Cubans and you might be amazed.


I don't think that it's all lies, so many people cant be so syncronized.


And to whoever said that people should be afraid of their governments to some extend, I only have one thing to say: "GODDAMNED "

I wish Bush would attempt to spread democracy instead of fascism in his own country.

Directed at you? Show me.

Maybe the people in cuba are longing for democracy but i am sure the don't want that the American way. Nobody want his country to becaome the second Iraq.

Americans thinks that the knows about democracy more than any other nation, why is that? what is so special about the americans? Europeans are living even better than the average american.

This fucking guy should keep his openion for himself and enough destroying the life of the people. Bush doesn't really care if they have democracy or not, he just want somebody to be his allied there.

That has little or nothing to to with democracy as such... Those are just people thinking they can have an overall better life in the USA. (btw, in that respect, I'm wondering, are all those cheering Cubans in Miami looking forward to the day the USA kindly asks them to return to Cuba, because Castro is out? )

As much as I hate dictatorships, I agree with Illrigger that Cuba is doing a damn fine job in the social area for it's citizens (check the World health organizations statistics about education, life expectancy and infant mortality). Comparable to Western nations, and WAY above all Southern American countries. And they have done this with the most important nation in the world constantly trying to supphocate them. That is a very impressive achievement.

But what I sincerly HATE in these types of discussions is that people always think they know what other people think, like "If you could hold a proper poll, you will see everybody wants Castro out". Says who? Why do some simply take it for granted that the entire population of Cuba wants the system to change? I'm not saying it isn't true, I'm just asking the question: what makes everybody so sure?

I'm from Europe, so I would love all nations to be democratic, but there isn't a doubt in my mind that many Cubans simply hate America. With all these boycotts, America hasn't exactly helped in making the daily life in Cuba any better. There are some life-saving medicines not available in Cuba simply because they happen to be made by, let's say, pfizer.

I simply don't believe that you can turn things your way by hurting the people, you simply create more hatred (i.e. the punishment of Palestinians by democtracially electing hamas). As said many times: the position of the USA towards Cuba is the life insurance of Castro.

[We have one politician in Belgium who has visted Castro a few times. He always calls him a "shrewd bastard": When he asked a critical question about Cuban prisons, and the conditions over there, Castro replied "I know, it's a tragedy over there in Guantanamo, isn't it?" ]

Um, Bush was perhaps the most isolationist president in the last 20 years, before people we wouldn't help came and attacked us. and the economy is doing fine, the job market is great, despite the lack of presence in the war effort, charitable giving is a record highs, and so is consumer spending, and investing.

That means only one thing. We have a system that works, if you are willing to work for it.

I have seen little indication most of the people "who want our help" would be able to handle it.

I honestly don't think a "man" willing to strap a bomb to himself and go kill a bus full of people is sane enough to be an accountant, a salesman, or even to make a fugkin latte at Starbucks!

"Why did you poison all the people?"

"I can't take it, Allah said I will get a .35 cent raise, and you deny me!!!"

"Why did you wipe the harddrive where we keep investor financials?"

"If you ignore me, I too will wipe you out!!! *boom*"

Seriously, god help the man who is trying to get his bank balance situated when Suicide Clyde is trying to cash his check before the evening rush hour on a Friday when the Phillys are playing a home game.

I think their method of combat is a sign of absolute weakness and ignorance.

I have been through a LOT of shit. Shit that is only rightly considered inhumane, and Never once, did I have to threaten an innocent to make my way, or make a stand for myself. And I retained my dignity (and my smile) throughout. The true spirit of the servant of God is the reflection of humility.

Firstly, I have no idea what got suicide bombers in this discussion raum.

Secondly, you want to tell me that if Bush doesn't spread his democracy, nations will attack him? Bullshit.

"We have a system that works, if you are willing to work for it."
Works in the US. As I have said before, Everynation has its form of govrnment.

Egypt for example, got a taste of AMERICAN democracy during our last elections and it was caos. The Islamic milants got tremendous power, the nation was divided, many polititians got fired, and it was a complete disaster and failure. Why? Because we are not use to this system and will never be use to it.


Middle East to Bush: Fuck off.

the suicide bombers on 9-11 are what turned Bush from an isolationist conservative to a global surveyer of democracy that is simply not any more welcome in the modern worldview than the people he seeks to destroy.

Secondly, you want to tell me that if Bush doesn't spread his democracy, nations will attack him? Bullshit. You can't name ten things the president did abroad before 9-11. The largest was fight for the right of Palestine to have a independent state, and the most embarrasing was to formally insult china over a spy-plane crash. Back then, he was amusing, but his policies were making some general progress.

No, the nations that attack don't want our democracy, they want the economic growth of OUR democracy... which is not possible without implementing a system of growth.

Maybe you should mount a political agenda, one that ends Egypts dependance on the financial aid from United States. It always amazes me when people like you want to bite the hand that feeds it.

Guess what? Our president is strongly critisized for being a puppet because of that aid. Everyone here, YES I MEAN EVERYONE, wants him to stop accepting aid OR accept the aid but follow our own governmental style.

What? you think that we are not capable of economic growth without the US? no. Egypt has many resources that remain untouched yet, including a huge desert with copious amounts of oil. We have the Suez Canal, and are one of the worlds greatest cotton exporters.

Besides, you are making it sound like without the US aid, Egypt will be in ruins. It wont. Because we have an economy, and a rather good one.

Depending on the US, even in a small way, is showing support.

When, and only when the US gets out of the Middle East, restores it back, then we can begin to get along and put an end to terrorism and west-related hatered.

The only reason they are loyal to Castro is fear that the Government will kill them. That has been done.

I don't like what King Bush is doing to America. He had no reason to force Democrocy on the world. If they don't want it then sucks to be them. Democrocy is a idealogy and needs to be accepted, I know if someone tried to force, say Communism on me I would be less than happy.

What can I honestly say?

Bush is trying too hard and is not focusing on the real problems at hand, I believe that he is trying to divert the attention of millions towards something that isn't as significant. He needs to focus on America alone and stand up and be a good leader in order to take care of his own rather than focus on external situations.

What i really cant understand is that Israel is ARRESTING Palestinian governmental ministers, MINISTERS!, and no one is doing anything at all!

That has got to be the most ignorant statement I have ever read on any forum board period. You truely believe that if we just packed up and left the Middle East that terrorism and western hatred would end? Hey while your at it I've got a bridge to sell ya, Goes by the name Brooklyn, I'll let it go cheap too.

Its just part of the plan to take over the world; Our plan is to issue Criminal warrants that would require legal proceedings against the Hamas officials and other terror organizations under the Prevention of Terror Ordinance. They will be charged with membership in or leadership of a terrorist organization.

The criminal proceedings will follow accepted legal standards. The suspects will be entitled to legal defense, and the arrest and investigation will be subject to judicial oversight. If a charge against a suspect is found to be baseless, he will be released.

We intend to arrest more senior Hamas figures in addition to the dozens of Palestinian lawmakers and ministers. Its just a simple plot to destroy the [Palestinian] Authority, the government and the parliament and to bring the Palestinian people to their knees.

We will give them free passage to either Syria, Iran and Egypt if they promise to never come back, but we have no takers yet as most of them feel they would be less welcome in any of these countries.

Fuck off virtualraider, and if you can't be serious in these topics don't post in them.

No that is not what I am saying. If you can fucking read then you would understand my post. The message I was trying to send via that post is that there will be no peace, AT ALL, as along as USA is invading Middle Eastern countries. Some other countries will tolerate it, but if history has taught us anything, there has always been terrorism, bloodshed and extreme hate *until today* when USA has attempted to take over countries.

Do you want me to believe that there will be peace in the Middle East when USA is invading? Fuck no. You can consider me a credible source because my entire family are major political figures all around the ME and I know what I am saying. I am currently in the heart of the Middle East (Saudi Arabia) and I can tell you that American troops and Arab civilians wont live together in peace.

What most people don't understand is that terrorism is a domino effect, and you have no way of controlling it through force.

Microshit, The only reason I portrayed it in this manner is because this is my persecption of what you believe.

And the reason I mentioned Egypt as a destionation of free passage;

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1948 - Egypt, Syria, Iraq, Lebanon, and Jordan attacked Israel, putatively to protect fellow Arabs from rule by Jews. Since they had much larger populations, better equipment, they expected to sweep the Jews away easily. Syria took some land out of the north-eastern section but Israel defended the majority of its borders successfully. The Palestinians either joined in the battle against the Israelis or cheered the Arabs on. Israelis displaced many Arabs from their homes. Most of these ended up in refugee camps; some (or their descendants) live there still. Jordan annexed the Arab sectors of Palestine (which we now call the West Bank).

1967 - Gamal Abdel Nasser, president of Egypt, organized the old coalition of Egypt, Jordan, and Syria to attack Israel in 1967. The three massed troops and equipment on the Israeli border and threatened to drive the Israelis into the sea. US President Johnson urged the Israelis to wait until the Arabs attacked first. But the Arab nations had much more sophisticated weapons in 1967 than they had in 1948, provided by the Soviet Union. Israel attacked first, destroying the Arab countries' air forces on the ground. Israel won back some of the land Syria had taken in 1948, the portion of Jordan west of the Jordan River, the Sinai peninsula of Egypt. The Palestinians of Israel sided with the Arabs. More ended up in refugee camps.

1970 - Nassar Died, Anwar Sadat, made peace with Israel in exchange for the return of the Sinai peninsula. They did not want the Gaza Strip, a small stretch of land on the Mediterranean off the southwest corner of Israel, bordering on the Sinai. Sadat did not want it back because Palestinians, a people disliked by Egyptians, populated it. The US pays large subsidies to Egypt in reward for this agreement.

King Hussein of Jordan already had more Palestinians than he wanted. He washed his hands of the West Bank and its fractious, and potentially rebellious, Palestinians, for a US subsidy.

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So Egypt and Jordan are excepting bribes in order to keep the Peace; and so that they do not have to deal with the Palestinians.

Yes the United states is involved, but it is your politicians that are excepting the deal. So why attack the U.S. when it is your countries choice to except the deal. When the U.S. does something their people do not like, they protest in front of the white house, write letters to their government reps. They do not condemn the country that their country has made the deal with. You blame the U.S. for your countries policy. Only your Politicians can change this.

I believe you have said that you fear your government, is this the reason you direct your protests towards the U.S. and Israel because you cannot protest against your own Politicians.

We protest against both. If a politician does something we as a united country do not accept, we will protest the shit out of him/them. 80% of the time, we get what we want. And where the hell did you get the idea that Egyptians "dislike" Palestinians? We don't love them with all our hearts, but they are very much accepted and fit in perfectly fine in our culture and country. You wouldn't know a Palestinian from an Egyptian until they talk and you can notice an accent.

The US has turned the Egyptian government into puppets, and we are not proud of it. It is all about the money and aid involved. We are heading toward economic reform that is NOT dependent on tourism or on US aid. When we reach that goal, hopefully the government will be independent.

Egypt is not a dictatorship, we have a very free press and many rights. We are probably the most free country in the Middle East. For example, when the government arrested a journalist for publishing something very very negative about our government (mostly rumors), the ENTIRE press, I mean 300+ newspapers published a blank newspaper, completely blank, with nothing but the newspaper's logo on it. We protested, the entire country protested, the journalist was freed and everyone got what they wanted at the end. (this happened about 2 months ago)

I hate the US government with all my heart because of what they did to our world. They invented terrorism, not us. Everyone has to understand that. US history is the worst history I have ever studied, the USA is built on bloodshed and crooked deals. They have attacked EVERY SINGLE PLACE on Earth, they didn't leave a single weak country to itself. They always had to have a piece of the action. So many wars, some many unjustifiable actions, so much hateful influence, so much cultural fading. If I could look Bush in the eyes I would tell him: "STOP." Don't you think that it is ironic for a country that is less than 400 years old to become the world's superpower? It just shows you how many people had to die and how many cultures had to suffer for this to be possible.

It is sick and I strongly believe they don't deserve all this power. They want more authority and neither I or will my entire region tolerate more of it. Our only problem in the Middle East is that we are not governmentally united. We are very, and I mean VERY culturally united, but our governments are being reserved and will not make a move.

All in all, there in an ultimate limit for everything, and that limit has not come yet, but if USA passes that limit in the Middle East, all hell breaks loose.

Don't fucking dare blame the US for the start of terrorism.

The real fucking deal is the killing of women and children and non-militants to coerce, establish, or intimidate a country is FAR older than the US, and the whole world is based on it. And that had *almost* changed until the UN.

I guess its America to blame that the fat-head fat walleted sheiks and oil barrons sapped the whole damn region dry, huh? Why, because our business in the area, which was the only was you possibly ever hoped to gain independence from Britain and France?

Screw this. More blame America bullshit. Why don't you ONCE blame the idiots who fucking dug a tunnel to start shit with Israel? or the UN soldiers that sell their uniforms? or MAYBE the people locked in the diamond conflicts out of Africa. or why don't you blame Egypt for betraying the Israelites, who were WELCOMED their, upon promise and vow of Pharoah, for all ages.


Most of your assertions are far too grounded in an anti-American sentiment that divorces the whole Middle East conflict from the veritable history of the region, the cultures, or even the species.

Very well said raum.

Microshit you use way to much energy for hate. Do you forget that in Canada and the US we have thriving Muslim communities, and some hold government positions. I have friends who are Muslims who tell me what they think and how they feel about whats going on in the Middle East. They have basically the same sentiment.

Despite a common religion and language Arabs of different ethnicities harbor hostility to each other. In particular they dislike Palestinians and many Lebanese as well as Jews. Kuwait and Saudi Arabia don't allow Palestinians citizenship. After Palestinians supported Iraq in its conquest of Kuwait in 1990 Kuwait replaced the Palestinians whom it used to hire for menial jobs.

US and Canadian governments are made up of many different people who come from many cultures, Some of them are Muslims. Do you hate these people too?



Whats your point? the middle eastern countries have been around for 2000 years. They are still fighting about who owns what. How could United States invent terrorism when it has only been around 400 years

I am in Saudi Arabia and I can tell you for fact that they do not allow any foreign citizenship. The entire saudi population is approximately 20-million people. My grandfather has been living and working in saudi for over 50 years, and he doesnt have a Saudi passport. It's like Dubai, only the Sheiks have citizenship.

I know the US have vast muslim communities, and i don't hate them at all. I never hated US citizens, hell I live with them everyday of my life! Its the government, and I think I made that very clear. The US governments imperialistic actions that have been well known and studied throughout its history and is still going on today is what caused terrorism. I am sorry, but I do not get the idea behind killing hundreds of thousands of people for the actions of a terrorist group(Al Qaeda- Afghanistan) and attack and invade another for false "predictions" (Iraq- WMDs). This is what caused terrorism on a large scale. I am not saying terrorism was not there before the US's actions, but it more than quadrupled when they invaded both Iraq and Afghanistan and backing up Israel. Both wars are completely unjustifiable and yes this is what made terrorism grow to unimaginable levels.

"Terrorism is a symptom not a disease."

Yea, but much of the recent events have been a Bush powered thing.

As much as I don't like the guy, Bush is hardly responsible for terrorism.

I find it interesting that people hate a country that is pretty open and welcoming to everyone. Even to the point that they'll consider giving illegal aliens citizenship.

But SA has people there who have lived there for 50 years (your grandfather) and they don't have citizenship. Frankly... I think I'd rather go to a place, which as much as I may dislike the leadership, lets me dislike them, and gives me the right to say so.

Its very easy to blame the US. But remember, every transaction, deal and interaction have 2 parties. Just because one buys something, the other accepts money, and both are guilty.

No country has the ability to turn another country 'into puppets', especially not a country as historic, long standing, and quite proud as the Egyptian government. Especially if the the people of that nation are any inidication of the pride.

If USA was so terrible and evil, there wouldn't be people clawing at the gates at a chance to get in.

Arafat said in a speech addressed to the world, "Terrorism is a symptom, not a disease". That is to say, he defends terrorism as a means of curing the disease. In the ideology and propaganda of the Jihad fanatics, Israel and the Jewish People are depicted as the disease, even as an embodiment of the "Cosmic Evil" of which the earth should be purged.

Arafat's statement quoted above, that "terrorism is a symptom, not a disease", describes precisely the situation. The Jihadists' anti-Jewish, anti-Israel, anti-Zionist stance is an awful disease, sheer madness, a sickness of soul, that goads them into actions perceived in the civilized world as terror. Jihadists present this insanity of theirs as pleasing to Allah, as the crowning glory of Islam; they promise their suicide bombers (with their minced bodies!) unlimited sex with 72 virgins in Paradise, ill-using their victims' death as a kind of entrance ticket to this paradise.

While the Jihadists claim just that, it is not so, at least not according to the Qur'an and Tannach (Jewish Bible). The Jihadists' hatred and hostility are a willful mis-interpretation of these Scriptures, forged for their ends. Their armed struggle against Israel is a crime against Islam and -- from the legal point of view -- a crime by all standards against international law. From the psychological point of view, it is a terrible disease, terrorism being its symptom.

Arafat, however inadvertently, described the situation correctly.
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Yes a symptom in deed.

Anyone else find irony in Arafat making that statement?

That one blew me from my chair. What sort of "cultural unitedness"do you mean: the one that makes Sunni's blow up Shi'ites in Iraq and vice versa? The one that makes Iraq's neighbours countries go apeshit when they see the growing influence of Iran in Iraq?

And Egypt not a dictatorship?? You are living under martial law since 1981(!), meaning things like no public demonstrations and you can be in prison without charges... And you can say what you want about Bush and the USA, but at least in 2008 they elect another guy (or girl). Try to compare that with Mubarak, and his 25 year presidency. If you don't like him, you are waiting already 25 years . Not to mention the fact that the popular Brotherhood of Islam can't even participate in elections (something the USA loves, because they only like democracy in the Middle East if they like who wins the elections )

You somehow say the Middle-East is this glorious peaceful region, but don't kid yourself: Sure the USA is responsible for the current civil war in Iraq, but it's not responsible for the breeding ground of that civil war: the fact that Shi'ites finally want the power in Iraq, something they didn't have under Saddam. If the USA wouldn't have invaded, and in a year or 10-15 Saddam would have died, Iraq would have had that civil war just as well (comparable to Yugoslavia: once communism gone, the nationalists started to fight).

On the other hand: Don't many sometimes wonder what this "war on terror" has finally brought us? Look at the world pre-9/11 and after. I'm not saying I know the right response to such a disaster, but somebody once said that a general "fuck you Bin Laden, you haven't hurt us at all, and we don't care about what you do, we are rebuilding the towers and will just move on with our lives" would have been a far better signal. What hurts terrorism groups most is being ignored.

Now it seems like he got everything he dreamt for: The war on Afghanistan, Iraq and generally the war on terror has created a deep common feeling amongst Muslims that the entire world hates them. Nobody ever said that the first Gulf War was against Islam, if the exact same thing would happen today (Saddam invading Kuwait and the world attacking him), can you imagine the reactions? Nobody blasted trains in Madrid or subways in London because of the first Gulf war. Now you have well educated, European born(!) Muslims who are willing to martyr themselves and take fellow citizens with them. And because of what, finally?

I can't say I think the world got more secure after 9/11. I can't say the war-on-terror brought a solution for the Palestinian/Israeli conflict any closer. Can't say I think relations between common Muslims and the Western world got sweeter. Our Muslim population in Europe also got more radical because of it. And then again I wonder: what if we would have completely ignored Bin Laden, let him be the sorry ass frustrated Saudi billionaire he is, and wouldn' have made him the symbol of what everybody seems to perceive as the clash of civilizations?

There are several schools of thought. The assault on the towers was an attempt to cause chaos and confusion, and separate the people. A very dumb attempt, especially if you look at the USA after Pearl Harbor.
I think we are safer than before, but I also think people are trying new things out now. Until 9/11, suicide terrorism was a relatively unhead of idea. (I know it was tried ac ouple times).
But despite Israels warnings to the USA, no one fathomed that someone would be able to actually use planes as missles against us.
After 9/11, the publicity that it naturally got, made other groups wake up and decide airplanes are the cool new thing.
We're only less safe now because more groups are trying.

Our fear is what cripples us the most. Yes, we're trying to be more preactive than proactive. But do you think that what is going on now justifies the means?

In reference to what?

What do you think of Obadiah Shoher's views on the Middle East conflict? One can argue, of course, that Shoher is ultra-right, but his followers are far from being a marginal group. Also, he rejects Jewish moralistic reasoning - that's alone is highly unusual for the Israeli right. And he is very influential here in Israel. So what do you think? uh, here's the site in question: Middle East conflict

I just downloaded the book now, It will take me a week to read and digest..

Some of the Bullet points on web site Seem truthful.

Interesting place to start this subject, maybe it needed the stealth local.

I don't ever get involved in all of this kinda stuff (burying my head in the sand), but what a great thread for seeing both sides of a story!

Makes me wish I got a little more involved back then