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Chugworth
I have seen some people here in the past waving around claims that the death penalty "doesn't work." Well I just came across this interesting article:

QUOTE
Studies: Death Penalty Discourages Crime

Anti-death penalty forces have gained momentum in the past few years, with a moratorium in Illinois, court disputes over lethal injection in more than a half-dozen states and progress toward outright abolishment in New Jersey.


The steady drumbeat of DNA exonerations — pointing out flaws in the justice system — has weighed against capital punishment. The moral opposition is loud, too, echoed in Europe and the rest of the industrialized world, where all but a few countries banned executions years ago.

What gets little notice, however, is a series of academic studies over the last half-dozen years that claim to settle a once hotly debated argument — whether the death penalty acts as a deterrent to murder. The analyses say yes. They count between three and 18 lives that would be saved by the execution of each convicted killer.

The reports have horrified death penalty opponents and several scientists, who vigorously question the data and its implications.

So far, the studies have had little impact on public policy. New Jersey's commission on the death penalty this year dismissed the body of knowledge on deterrence as "inconclusive."

But the ferocious argument in academic circles could eventually spread to a wider audience, as it has in the past.

"Science does really draw a conclusion. It did. There is no question about it," said Naci Mocan, an economics professor at the University of Colorado at Denver. "The conclusion is there is a deterrent effect."

A 2003 study he co-authored, and a 2006 study that re-examined the data, found that each execution results in five fewer homicides, and commuting a death sentence means five more homicides. "The results are robust, they don't really go away," he said. "I oppose the death penalty. But my results show that the death penalty (deters) — what am I going to do, hide them?"

Statistical studies like his are among a dozen papers since 2001 that capital punishment has deterrent effects. They all explore the same basic theory — if the cost of something (be it the purchase of an apple or the act of killing someone) becomes too high, people will change their behavior (forego apples or shy from murder).

To explore the question, they look at executions and homicides, by year and by state or county, trying to tease out the impact of the death penalty on homicides by accounting for other factors, such as unemployment data and per capita income, the probabilities of arrest and conviction, and more.

Among the conclusions:
  • Each execution deters an average of 18 murders, according to a 2003 nationwide study by professors at Emory University. (Other studies have estimated the deterred murders per execution at three, five and 14).
  • The Illinois moratorium on executions in 2000 led to 150 additional homicides over four years following, according to a 2006 study by professors at the University of Houston.
  • Speeding up executions would strengthen the deterrent effect. For every 2.75 years cut from time spent on death row, one murder would be prevented, according to a 2004 study by an Emory University professor.

In 2005, there were 16,692 cases of murder and nonnegligent manslaughter nationally. There were 60 executions.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,280215,00.html

It's just common sense that if the punishment is severe enough, fewer people will break the law.
K2
This reminds me of a study that 2 professors once did way back:

It appeared that in every state where abortion was legalized, crime rates dropped between 16-20 years later... I guess most can figure out themselves what is going on, but for the others: less unwanted children, less bad childhoods and abortion happens mainly in more difficult social groups (because birth control usage is lower), meaning less "high potential" youngsters.

The correlation was statistically relevant and the pattern was pretty easy to see, since most states legalized it within a different timeframe, so you could almost follow the trail.

You can draw 2 conclusions: 1) the death penalty works, because it's stops crime. But then you have to legalize abortion, because that also stops crime.

or 2) (the one I would go for): This is an ethical/political discussion: ethics and moral are far more important then a scientific link. Who would suddenly change his mind about abortion because of the above study? No, you stick to your morals and just cope with the fact that "pro life" is far more important then some extra crime.

And basically the death penalty is similar: in the USA the general feeling is that some crimes deserve the capital punishment, in other countries it's different. It's mainly related to tradition, history, culture, morals rather then the actual efficiency of such laws!
adamj
Perfectly said K2. smile.gif

Is it me or does it seem that the death penalty is a 'distant' punishment? If a potential criminal decides to commit a crime, wouldn't the idea of life in prison, be more approachable as a possible consequence? Surely with all the people in jails, this seems more plausible - thus the only deterrent. I'll guess that no major group of criminals have thought about the death penalty before committing crimes.

Really, I don't think many criminals think about much of anything before they commit crimes.
:\

A second thought - which might give more credit to my idea... I can only speak for Americanized culture, but it's commonly known that you break the law, you go to jail. There isn't too much thought put into "you break the law, you die". It's not "common thought". So I don't think it would be such a huge deterrent. It could be effective statistically, but it's either not used enough to be a major deterrent, or the population that considers it a deterrent isn't large enough.

But it still falls back on ethics again. Ahh democracy - a constant struggle smile.gif

uh oh
QUOTE
Ultimately, a panel was set up by the
National Academy of Sciences which decided that Ehrlich's conclusions were flawed. But the new pro-deterrent studies haven't gotten that kind of scrutiny.

Yahoo is carrying the story as well: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070611/ap_on_...alty_deterrence
Chug rolleyes.gif heh

Singh400
QUOTE(K2 @ Jun 11 2007, 14:16) *

This reminds me of a study that 2 professors once did way back:

It appeared that in every state where abortion was legalized, crime rates dropped between 16-20 years later... I guess most can figure out themselves what is going on, but for the others: less unwanted children, less bad childhoods and abortion happens mainly in more difficult social groups (because birth control usage is lower), meaning less "high potential" youngsters.

The correlation was statistically relevant and the pattern was pretty easy to see, since most states legalized it within a different timeframe, so you could almost follow the trail.

You can draw 2 conclusions: 1) the death penalty works, because it's stops crime. But then you have to legalize abortion, because that also stops crime.

or 2) (the one I would go for): This is an ethical/political discussion: ethics and moral are far more important then a scientific link. Who would suddenly change his mind about abortion because of the above study? No, you stick to your morals and just cope with the fact that "pro life" is far more important then some extra crime.

And basically the death penalty is similar: in the USA the general feeling is that some crimes deserve the capital punishment, in other countries it's different. It's mainly related to tradition, history, culture, morals rather then the actual efficiency of such laws!
Some interesting stuff there.

However, I don't believe that the death penalty does truly discourages crime. I figure you only get the death penalty for serious crimes - such as murder. Now it is my believe that most murders are an act of passion/rage/anger - heat of the moment crimes. Hence why the death penatly hanging over of that person wouldn't factor into the whole killing somebody.

The stuff about abortion sounds spot on, teenage girls get pregnant they have three options:
1) Keep the kid, try to raise the kid, eventually fail (in most cases), kid goes onto to commit crime etc etc into downware sprial.
2) Have the kid, but give it to social services, who then move the kid around different foster homes. Kid grows up hating everyone and again turns to crime
3) Have an abortion - not the best solution, but surely it would be better to spare the kid of the terrible life that he/she might lead, the finicial difficuluties for the mother etc etc.

I'm neither pro or anti abortion, just thinking from a purely logical point of view.
rws7
QUOTE(Singh400 @ Jun 11 2007, 16:23) *

QUOTE(K2 @ Jun 11 2007, 14:16) *

This reminds me of a study that 2 professors once did way back:

It appeared that in every state where abortion was legalized, crime rates dropped between 16-20 years later... I guess most can figure out themselves what is going on, but for the others: less unwanted children, less bad childhoods and abortion happens mainly in more difficult social groups (because birth control usage is lower), meaning less "high potential" youngsters.

The correlation was statistically relevant and the pattern was pretty easy to see, since most states legalized it within a different timeframe, so you could almost follow the trail.

You can draw 2 conclusions: 1) the death penalty works, because it's stops crime. But then you have to legalize abortion, because that also stops crime.

or 2) (the one I would go for): This is an ethical/political discussion: ethics and moral are far more important then a scientific link. Who would suddenly change his mind about abortion because of the above study? No, you stick to your morals and just cope with the fact that "pro life" is far more important then some extra crime.

And basically the death penalty is similar: in the USA the general feeling is that some crimes deserve the capital punishment, in other countries it's different. It's mainly related to tradition, history, culture, morals rather then the actual efficiency of such laws!
Some interesting stuff there.

However, I don't believe that the death penalty does truly discourages crime. I figure you only get the death penalty for serious crimes - such as murder. Now it is my believe that most murders are an act of passion/rage/anger - heat of the moment crimes. Hence why the death penatly hanging over of that person wouldn't factor into the whole killing somebody.

The stuff about abortion sounds spot on, teenage girls get pregnant they have three options:
1) Keep the kid, try to raise the kid, eventually fail (in most cases), kid goes onto to commit crime etc etc into downware sprial.
2) Have the kid, but give it to social services, who then move the kid around different foster homes. Kid grows up hating everyone and again turns to crime
3) Have an abortion - not the best solution, but surely it would be better to spare the kid of the terrible life that he/she might lead, the finicial difficuluties for the mother etc etc.

I'm neither pro or anti abortion, just thinking from a purely logical point of view.

I agree, and the mother should think about the child first.
Man1k3n
sorry guys, I'm against the death penalty.

nuff said on my point...but you all have logical view
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